What we don't know.

Started by wm.annis, December 22, 2009, 08:28:52 AM

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wm.annis

The post How we know what we know also deserves a quick read, if I do say so myself.


As enthusiastic as I am about the idea of people all over this planet trying to figure out ejective consonants, I feel a little hesitant to post this — I don't want to be a downer.  But I think it's important to mention a few of the important things we don't yet know about the Na'vi language, if for no other reason that to reduce duplicate questions.

We don't know when the full grammar will be published, nor how it will be published (book? online?).

We don't know all the case endings!  We know there are five cases.  Frommer himself says the case markers have multiple forms, but we have very few examples of them in use.  We don't know the correct dative for many words, for example.

We don't know if Na'vi is very fond of topics (like Japanese), though it might be safe to guess it is.

We don't know how to form the trial (but we do know the singular, dual and plural).

We don't know all the verb infixes.

We don't know how to combine the verb infixes when you need several of them, and we do know that the combinations might be irregular and unpredictable based on what Frommer has told us.

We don't know what (or where) the formality affix goes on the verb (though we know such a thing exists).

We know almost nothing about how to form complex sentences (by which I mean subordinate clauses, relative clauses, etc.).

We don't know which prepositions cause lenition and which do not, though we do know does.

We don't know for certain if lenition happens in consonant clusters.  That is, is it aytsmuktu or aysmuktu?  Human languages cope with this situation variously, so I worry.  :)

We don't fully know what happens if more than one adjective modifies a noun.

We don't know the full Na'vi vocabulary.  The words from the Activist's Guide are maybe half the total, and many of those words are for Pandoran wildlife.

It looks like some adjectives may participate in verbal morphology (this is common in many languages).  We have an example, livok, but there may be confusion due to the very brief definitions in the vocab list.


Edit: updated a bit, in light of new knowledge.

Brainiac

#1
EDIT: I think that, even considering all that, we shouldn't discourage people from trying new things anyway.
For one thing, it's fun.
Secondly, it's good grammatical training.
Thirdly, since not everything is given, we might assume that there are still some things that need development.
We could be helping in that area.
Fresh ideas are the spawn of fresh minds.
Speed is a ppoor sbubstitue fo accurancy

Check out my blogif my presence on this board isn't weird enough for you.

Karyu Amawey

I DO really wish he would come out with more grammar and vocabulary, though.  At least get the number system down pat and give us something to work with.  Maybe how some vocabulary words get morphed together, like compounds?
Oel ayngati kameie

Brainiac

Quote from: Karyu Amawey on December 22, 2009, 09:12:04 AM
I DO really wish he would come out with more grammar and vocabulary, though.  At least get the number system down pat and give us something to work with.  Maybe how some vocabulary words get morphed together, like compounds?
that'd be a great idea. Well, if he ever finds out about this forum, who knows?
Speed is a ppoor sbubstitue fo accurancy

Check out my blogif my presence on this board isn't weird enough for you.

Eywayä mokri

Quote from: Brainiac on December 22, 2009, 09:14:20 AM

that'd be a great idea. Well, if he ever finds out about this forum, who knows?

Am sure he already has. :) Don't know why.
°°We don't forget anyone, we only get used to their absence.°°

Brainiac

Quote from: Eywayä on December 22, 2009, 09:14:58 AM
Quote from: Brainiac on December 22, 2009, 09:14:20 AM

that'd be a great idea. Well, if he ever finds out about this forum, who knows?

Am sure he already has. :) Don't know why.
well, one of us has already sent him a mail, that's for sure.
Speed is a ppoor sbubstitue fo accurancy

Check out my blogif my presence on this board isn't weird enough for you.

wm.annis

Quote from: Brainiac on December 22, 2009, 08:34:50 AM
EDIT: I think that, even considering all that, we shouldn't discourage people from trying new things anyway.

Human beings like to play with language, and a puzzle like Na'vi invites speculation.  So, I'm sympathetic to people trying new things.

At the same time, however, I think it's very imortant for those feeling bold with the language to make a clear distinction between what is certain and what is speculuation, however well-founded that speculation might be, so that beginners aren't unintentionally getting information that may turn out later to be incorrect.

Given the time Frommer spent on Na'vi, and the amount of it that occurs in the films, I suspect the language is far better developed than we now know.

Brainiac

Quote from: wm.annis on December 22, 2009, 09:20:38 AM
Quote from: Brainiac on December 22, 2009, 08:34:50 AM
EDIT: I think that, even considering all that, we shouldn't discourage people from trying new things anyway.

Human beings like to play with language, and a puzzle like Na'vi invites speculation.  So, I'm sympathetic to people trying new things.

At the same time, however, I think it's very imortant for those feeling bold with the language to make a clear distinction between what is certain and what is speculuation, however well-founded that speculation might be, so that beginners aren't unintentionally getting information that may turn out later to be incorrect.

Given the time Frommer spent on Na'vi, and the amount of it that occurs in the films, I suspect the language is far better developed than we now know.

tsa'u nga leiu (correct me if I'm wrong :) )
You have to know you're capable of making mistakes before accepting corrections, but after you've done that, I think there's no harm in making mistakes.
Speed is a ppoor sbubstitue fo accurancy

Check out my blogif my presence on this board isn't weird enough for you.

matthewmartin

Quote from: wm.annis on December 22, 2009, 08:28:52 AM
As enthusiastic as I am about the idea of people all over this planet trying to figure out ejective consonants, I feel a little hesitant to post this — I don't want to be a downer.  But I think it's important to mention a few of the important things we don't yet know about the Na'vi language, if for no other reason that to reduce duplicate questions.

Phah, I wasn't going to be correctly using those any how for a long while, even if I did know the rules. I plan to stick to two and three word sentences.  The natives will understand me better that way. :-)

Tirealì'u

A Downer? Maybe, but this thread is good to keep in mind.

It also explains why, right now, other than pronunciation and some basic grammar, the main thing I'm concerning myself with is straight up vocab memorization.

EPILEFMAN

jeeze, give it a break, its just a new language. better to start off small and build up anyways

kiyevame tawtute!  ;D :P

Tsmukan Ikranä

Anyone notice that the letter "c" is completely missing, so if d, b, q, and j arent in the na'vi language, is c also in that list? im just curious as to this on intended to greet my boss at work tomorrow in na'vi and Collins has a C in it O.o lol i understand i could just pronounce the name as if i would semi-normally, but that besides the point of whether C is actually part of their alphabet or not. ( its not in the Phonology list either )
Seze
Tsteu Seze! Txur Seze! FKEU SEZE!!
Nawm ronsem lonu ta fkeu tokx, fpi Na'Viä fpom.
Mawey txur txe'lan, tswayon nìwin.
Set unil ftue.
Eywa ngahu tsmuke! ( Irayo! everyone who helped me edit this n.n )

wisnij

Quote from: tsìng tsyal a vrrtep on December 23, 2009, 03:40:37 PM
Anyone notice that the letter "c" is completely missing, so if d, b, q, and j arent in the na'vi language, is c also in that list? im just curious as to this on intended to greet my boss at work tomorrow in na'vi and Collins has a C in it O.o lol i understand i could just pronounce the name as if i would semi-normally, but that besides the point of whether C is actually part of their alphabet or not. ( its not in the Phonology list either )

Collins is pronounced with a /k/.
Wé cildra biddaþ þé, éalá láréow, þæt þú taéce ús sprecan rihte, forþám ungelaérede wé sindon, and gewæmmodlíce we sprecaþ.

Tsmukan Ikranä

wow, i guess that would make sense seeming as how they two letter are phonetically pronounce the same in english.

irayo!

sorry for the stupid question all. >.>
Seze
Tsteu Seze! Txur Seze! FKEU SEZE!!
Nawm ronsem lonu ta fkeu tokx, fpi Na'Viä fpom.
Mawey txur txe'lan, tswayon nìwin.
Set unil ftue.
Eywa ngahu tsmuke! ( Irayo! everyone who helped me edit this n.n )

Txur’Itan

Quote from: wm.annis on December 22, 2009, 09:20:38 AM
Quote from: Brainiac on December 22, 2009, 08:34:50 AM
EDIT: I think that, even considering all that, we shouldn't discourage people from trying new things anyway.

Human beings like to play with language, and a puzzle like Na'vi invites speculation.  So, I'm sympathetic to people trying new things.

At the same time, however, I think it's very imortant for those feeling bold with the language to make a clear distinction between what is certain and what is speculuation, however well-founded that speculation might be, so that beginners aren't unintentionally getting information that may turn out later to be incorrect.

Given the time Frommer spent on Na'vi, and the amount of it that occurs in the films, I suspect the language is far better developed than we now know.

I agree.  It is a good best practice to clarify everything as guesses unless Frommer starts offering classes, or starts judging our assertions for us.
私は太った男だ。


Paeter

Yes, I'm glad you have given this attention. After looking through all the information about Na'vi, it is clear to me that there is not enough to learn the language properly and create correct sentences of our own. There is too much missing. As such, I think that the only real course of action while we wait for more information is to practice the pronunciation then learn the 500 words and all the ready-made sentences that have been published by Paul Frommer. In this way, we won't have to unlearn anything later on.

Tsmukan Ikranä

thats what ive been trying to do, im starting with the aplhabet simply for now, i need to learn to enunciate before i can do anything else. I started to think . . . hmmm 2 days into this na'vi language and im running around to the different parts like a headless chicken . . . . i need to simplify first then work up . . . like we did in grade school. it just would be awesome to have a flashcard or study program fer winmo that works. *sigh* my headaches grow worse but i know its because im working my brain too much right now.
Seze
Tsteu Seze! Txur Seze! FKEU SEZE!!
Nawm ronsem lonu ta fkeu tokx, fpi Na'Viä fpom.
Mawey txur txe'lan, tswayon nìwin.
Set unil ftue.
Eywa ngahu tsmuke! ( Irayo! everyone who helped me edit this n.n )

wm.annis

Quote from: tsìng tsyal a vrrtep on December 23, 2009, 09:58:56 PM*sigh* my headaches grow worse but i know its because im working my brain too much right now.

In language learning, doing a little bit every day is far more effective than bingeing, even if it sometimes seems too slow.

Beduino

Quote from: tsìng tsyal a vrrtep on December 23, 2009, 09:58:56 PM
thats what ive been trying to do, im starting with the aplhabet simply for now, i need to learn to enunciate before i can do anything else. I started to think . . . hmmm 2 days into this na'vi language and im running around to the different parts like a headless chicken . . . . i need to simplify first then work up . . . like we did in grade school. it just would be awesome to have a flashcard or study program fer winmo that works. *sigh* my headaches grow worse but i know its because im working my brain too much right now.

take a look http://forum.learnnavi.org/index.php?topic=23.0

flashcard program FTW! :D
tsun ngal tslam fì'uti srak?

Tsmukan Ikranä

irayo! now all i need is one fer my smart phone that isnt gflash+

the site wont even load on my phone, and when it DID, i purchased it, the phone will not use it, the site refused me a refund.
Seze
Tsteu Seze! Txur Seze! FKEU SEZE!!
Nawm ronsem lonu ta fkeu tokx, fpi Na'Viä fpom.
Mawey txur txe'lan, tswayon nìwin.
Set unil ftue.
Eywa ngahu tsmuke! ( Irayo! everyone who helped me edit this n.n )