Eltu si / nari si

Started by Kemaweyan, June 29, 2013, 07:22:44 AM

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Kemaweyan

Now I was talking with tsm. Taywaro about the verb eltu si and we don't know which case we must use for its object. For example:

  Slä lì'uä ve'ori nìkeftxo eltu ke soli oe.

or

  Slä lì'uä ve'oru nìkeftxo eltu ke soli oe.

Personally I'd prefer dative, but I'm not sure. Unfortunately I don't remember any examples from Pawl. And what do you think? Also I have same question about nari si.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Plumps

No example of eltu si other than a command/imperative...
And honestly, I wouldn't know how to use it otherwise. It would be interesting to know whether K. Pawl actually has the same understanding of it as he English 'pay attention (to something/someone)'

With nari si (other than a command/imperative) we have,

Nari soli ayoe [= moe] fteke nìhawng livok. [1]
Nari si fte kea fekem ke liven ngar! [2]
Fìtxeleri zene oe nari sivi! [3]
Kllte lu ekxtxu. Nari si txokefyaw tìran nìnu. [4]

So, it seems like topic for when you talk about a certain thing or object; fte, fteke or txokefyaw when you talk about an action.

Kemaweyan

Irayo. It seems that we must use topic for objects of nari si :) But I think fte, fteke and txokefyaw do not matter here, because that's common way to express purpose or result. For example in sentence [2] instead of nari si could be anything:

  Rä'ä kivä tsatsenge fte kea fekem ke liven ngar!
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Kamean

Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Blue Elf

Quote from: Kemaweyan on June 29, 2013, 07:22:44 AM
Now I was talking with tsm. Taywaro about the verb eltu si and we don't know which case we must use for its object. For example:

  Slä lì'uä ve'ori nìkeftxo eltu ke soli oe.

or

  Slä lì'uä ve'oru nìkeftxo eltu ke soli oe.

Personally I'd prefer dative, but I'm not sure. Unfortunately I don't remember any examples from Pawl. And what do you think? Also I have same question about nari si.
Dative is used in this situation in Slavic languages, so I understand what you mean. But I'd use topical.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Kemaweyan

Quote from: Blue Elf on June 29, 2013, 01:51:15 PM
Dative is used in this situation in Slavic languages

I'm not sure on this. In Russian and Ukrainian we use adpositions with accusative.

Quote from: Blue Elf on June 29, 2013, 01:51:15 PM
But I'd use topical.

What about this (my example, not a rule)?

  Fì'upxapreri oe keyeyur eltu soli.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tanri

Quote from: Kemaweyan on June 30, 2013, 12:53:17 AM
In Russian and Ukrainian we use adpositions with accusative.
in Czech as well ("dávat pozor na něco" = literally "pay attention to something")

Quote
What about this (my example, not a rule)?
Fì'upxapreri oe keyeyur eltu soli.
My human half says "What?", and Na'vi one responds "Not sure about the meaning, but at least it's grammatical!"

More details: I understand dative as "recipient of the action", not "indirect object". Imho the term "indirect object" was invented by humans for better translation, but doesn't have Na'vi equivalent. So the Na'vi literal translation of "As for this message, I have paid attention to the errors" seems grammatically correct to me.

However, I don't know whether this should mean
1) I have paid attention to the errors, so I placed them with extreme caution.
or
2) I have paid attention to the errors, so I didn't make a single one.

Without further explanation from real Na'vi, or from Karyu Pawl, I'd say "Fì'upxareri eltu soli oe fteke ngivop keyeyt".  ;)
Tätxawyu akì'ong.

Blue Elf

Quote from: Tanri on July 01, 2013, 09:29:42 AM
Quote from: Kemaweyan on June 30, 2013, 12:53:17 AM
In Russian and Ukrainian we use adpositions with accusative.
in Czech as well ("dávat pozor na něco" = literally "pay attention to something")
Ngay. But my first idea was věnovat pozornost něčemu (dative) - what is literal translation
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tanri on July 01, 2013, 09:29:42 AM
However, I don't know whether this should mean
1) I have paid attention to the errors, so I placed them with extreme caution.
or
2) I have paid attention to the errors, so I didn't make a single one.

Hmm.. interesting. So we don't know how to understand eltu si: as «pay attention» (to something) or as «to be attentive» :-\
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D