Infix positions

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[Plumps]

Ma oeyä smuktu

I came across an interesting vocabulary example.

sleyku (obviously created by combining slu with the causative infix <eyk>) is given as sl.eyk.u
Does that mean that all verbs that are created with an infix behave that way?
What about steyki "make sb. angy" - there the infix positions are not given (in Taronyu's Dict. v9.53). Is it *st.eyk.i or *steyk.i?

What about words like win säpi could I actually insert other infixes of position 0 type before ä or do they take 'normal' order before i?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on that...

[Lance R. Casey]

I don't think that sleyku should be seen as a discrete verb, but as an already-infixed slu. Since ‹eyk› is a pre-first-position infix and the root is monosyllabic, there is then only one infix position: sleyk.u. Same with steyk.i.

For win säpi, the ‹äp› infix is also pre-first, so win säp.i, and no other pre-first infixes can be used.

That said, I suppose there could be infixed forms which have become lexicalized to such a degree that they behave as verbs in their own right, but I don't think any of these do.

[Plumps]

Alright, thanks!
Well then we should get back to Taronyu ... as far as I know he got the verb list from Frommer (did others as well?) I thought the infix positions were attested then...
Wiki agrees with you.

Follow-up question... sleyku = proudce ... what happens if I wanted to say: "I made him produce the speer"

[Keylstxatsmen]

Alright, thanks!
Well then we should get back to Taronyu ... as far as I know he got the verb list from Frommer (did others as well?) I thought the infix positions were attested then...
Wiki agrees with you.

Follow-up question... sleyku = proudce ... what happens if I wanted to say: "I made him produce the speer"

You still were the cause of the spear getting produced right?  Whoever actually made it would just be the means of it's production. 

Oel tukrut sleyku fa po. or Oel tukrut sleyku poru.

-Keyl

[Plumps]

But if "produce" is a verb in its own right ... wouldn't it have to be *sleykeyku
Maybe I'm overthinking this but "make become" has a different connotation for me than "produce"

I produced him a spear = I made the spear
I made him produce a spear = he made the spear

[Keylstxatsmen]

But if "produce" is a verb in its own right ... wouldn't it have to be *sleykeyku
Maybe I'm overthinking this but "make become" has a different connotation for me than "produce"

I don't think sleyku is a verb in its own right, its just an inflection (infixion?) of slu.  It must stop being a copula when its made transitive, but I'm not sure about that, or how it really is supposed to work.  It is a weird connotation, not what I expected it to be.

I produced him a spear = I made the spear
I made him produce a spear = he made the spear

I would say that in both of these cases you produced the spear, whether it was you doing the work or not, the spear was made because you caused it to be.  In the first I would use poru, because you made it for him, and the second I would say fa po, to bring attention to the fact that he did the work, even though you "had it done".

-Keyl
  

[tigermind]

I feel like this question is purely academic, since we have the verb txula.  But then, to be fair, i haven't come across a situation yet in which i needed to use sleyku, so i haven't really given the nuances of its use too much thought.

[omängum fra'uti]

It seems to me that in the sense of slu where it becomes "produce" with eyk, it's acting more existentially rather than copulatively anyway.  (Come into existence, rather than come into being something.)  So the causative is just cause to come into existance, and it acts like any other transitive verb in that form.

[Lrrtoksì nìhawng]

I'm kind of dumb. So you have...

Utralìl sleyku rinat.
The tree produces a seed.

Tìsomìl eana syulangit sleyku rim.
Heat causes the blue flower to become yellow.

...and both of these are okay?

[roger]

In the latter, seze (blue flower) might be in the dative. 'Nother question for Paul.

[tigermind]

Also, don't forget that seed is rina'--that glottal stop is important.  So in the accusative, it needs to be rina'ti or rina'it.

I agree with Roger on that second sentence; i could talk myself into it being accusative or dative, so we'll need clarification from Karyu Pawl.  My instinct is that it becomes dative, though.

[Lrrtoksì nìhawng]

Irayo, ma tigermind. I keep forgetting when the glottal stop comes at the end of a word. It's not a place where I would expect one.

Ma roger, I thought seze referred a particular species of Pandoran flora which happens to have blue flowers. I can't find my ASG right now. In any case, I wish we had words for more colors.

[Txur’Itan]

--SNIP

In any case, I wish we had words for more colors.

They are incoming -

http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/the-color-palette-vote!/msg138472/#msg138472

[roger]

Ma roger, I thought seze referred a particular species of Pandoran flora which happens to have blue flowers.

Yeah, I believe it is. I was just being a pain.