Kaltxì, Guest! Why don't you join our community?
Learn Na'vi Community
July 29, 2015, 01:48:17 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
Dr. Paul Frommer's
Language Workbook
News: Current Na'vi dictionary is version 13.234. You can download it here!
 
   Home   Staff Rules Gallery Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 16 17 18 19 [20] 21 22 23 24 ... 103   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Our Dictionary  (Read 78298 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
roger
Taronyu
****

Karma: 22
Offline Offline

Posts: 724


« Reply #380 on: January 28, 2010, 10:17:02 pm »

ayoeng is pronounced [aj'weŋ]
oe- is also [we]
IPA of oeng not clear. might be [weng]
We sure about the [we], now?

I think the rest has been answered by others, so I'll just take this one.

There are multiple lines of evidence that the oe form a single syllable in many derivations, though in plain oe itself they are two, and that this syllable is pronounced [we-].
(1) it's consistently marked ayoeng, etc.;
(2) Frommer states that awnga- is shorter than ayoenga- by one syllable:
   "The advantage of the aw[nga] forms ... is that most of the declined forms are 2 syllables rather than 3, or 3 rather than 4. Example: ayoengal (3 syll.) vs. awngal (2 syll.)."
(3) F says that nga yawne lu oer has five syllables;
(4) it's pronounced this way by him in the Hunt Song and in the movie;
(5) this can't happen in some forms, because it would result in illegal C clusters:
  "No new C-clusters! ... In the dual and trial, the stress on the oe element does not shift. So pxoengaru has 4 syllables." That is, stress shift results in syllable reduction, as "ayoeng" etc. would suggest, and this can't happen in some forms because the resulting consonant would be illegal;
(6) there cannot be more than one vowel in a syllable;
(7) the only likely consonantal homologue of [ o ] is [ w ] (both rounded, both dorsal), confirming the fairly clear pronunciation of Frommer and the film.
( 8 ) the formal pronoun ohe also shifts stress to the e in these derived forms, though in this case there appears to be no further change.

I don't know all the forms that have the stress shift and concomitant [ o ] --> [ we ]. Oe is oe; I've heard oel both ways; however, all attested syllabic prefixes, as well as historically syllabic prefixes such as -r and -ng, have the shift; the prefixes m-, px- block the shift.
Logged
omängum fra'uti
Moderator Emeritus
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 127
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 3811


Na'vi's first grammar nazi


WWW
« Reply #381 on: January 28, 2010, 11:35:22 pm »

Two new words...

txula: v. build, construct
txantsan: adj. excellent

(Both sourced from Frommer email)
Logged

Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!
omängum fra'uti
Moderator Emeritus
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 127
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 3811


Na'vi's first grammar nazi


WWW
« Reply #382 on: January 29, 2010, 12:58:28 am »

Also, "si" does not literally mean "do, make", but it is an auxiliary verb for forming compound verbs.
Logged

Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!
roger
Taronyu
****

Karma: 22
Offline Offline

Posts: 724


« Reply #383 on: January 29, 2010, 02:04:33 am »

Ah, finally, real attestation for what sgelceg means:

Quote
Explanation: “Tawsìp” is actually “sky ship,” the term they would use for a space vehicle. (I assume we’re talking space ships here, not ocean liners.) “Sìp” is obviously borrowed from English. “Sngeltseng” means garbage dump, but I hope that’s close enough.

That was here: http://www.ugo.com/movies/we-translate-your-phrases-into-navi
I knew it was around somewhere.

And relating to another question that's come up:

Quote
And I’m not sure if they even have the concept of buying.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 02:06:33 am by roger » Logged
Mirri
'Eveng
***

Karma: 6
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


Taronlì'uyu


« Reply #384 on: January 29, 2010, 04:02:11 am »

Two new words...

txula: v. build, construct
txantsan: adj. excellent

(Both sourced from Frommer email)

I found txula in the email. Where'd you get txantsan from?


And relating to another question that's come up:

Quote
And I’m not sure if they even have the concept of buying.

Surely they must have a concept of acquiring something, though? Even if it is a gift economy.
Logged

Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.
omängum fra'uti
Moderator Emeritus
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 127
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 3811


Na'vi's first grammar nazi


WWW
« Reply #385 on: January 29, 2010, 04:08:29 am »

I found txula in the email. Where'd you get txantsan from?
I'd only included the relevant parts of the email as far as grammar information.  The word was from a couple brief sentences he gave in Na'vi (In response to a paragraphish I'd included).
Quote
Poltxe nga san ke lu oe kea ftiayu lelì'fya sìk, slä law lu oeru, ngeyä lì'fya leNa'vi txantsan leiu nìngay!
[txantsan (stress on 1st) = excellent]
Logged

Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!
Mirri
'Eveng
***

Karma: 6
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


Taronlì'uyu


« Reply #386 on: January 29, 2010, 04:20:12 am »

I found txula in the email. Where'd you get txantsan from?
I'd only included the relevant parts of the email as far as grammar information.  The word was from a couple brief sentences he gave in Na'vi (In response to a paragraphish I'd included).
Quote
Poltxe nga san ke lu oe kea ftiayu lelì'fya sìk, slä law lu oeru, ngeyä lì'fya leNa'vi txantsan leiu nìngay!
[txantsan (stress on 1st) = excellent]

Would be nice if you could include all source material in the corpus for analysis. For example, that looks like an attestation of ftiayu for "student" that we didn't have before.

And <ol> eats the ll in plltxe..?
Logged

Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.
roger
Taronyu
****

Karma: 22
Offline Offline

Posts: 724


« Reply #387 on: January 29, 2010, 04:24:46 am »

And <ol> eats the ll in plltxe..?
Yes, that's been attested elsewhere. Evidently you can't have lll; prob'ly not rrr either, if I had to guess.
Logged
Mirri
'Eveng
***

Karma: 6
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


Taronlì'uyu


« Reply #388 on: January 29, 2010, 04:30:28 am »

And <ol> eats the ll in plltxe..?
Yes, that's been attested elsewhere. Evidently you can't have lll; prob'ly not rrr either, if I had to guess.

Gotcha. It did look a bit weird to me too, but ll is said to behave like a vowel so.. I dunno.


Another correction for our Na'wiktionary:
 pängkxo should be "chat, converse" (never liked the informalness of "chat" as a translation for that one)
Logged

Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.
omängum fra'uti
Moderator Emeritus
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 127
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 3811


Na'vi's first grammar nazi


WWW
« Reply #389 on: January 29, 2010, 04:39:12 am »

Would be nice if you could include all source material in the corpus for analysis. For example, that looks like an attestation of ftiayu for "student" that we didn't have before.
And that is precisely a good reason NOT to include everything.

The part with "ftiayu" is where he was quoting me (... san ke lu oe kea ftiayu lelì'fya sìk... the part in the middle were my words), not speaking his own words, so don't read anything into it.  He also said that he did have a few comments on my Na'vi but did not have time to get to it right then.  So anything I said in Na'vi, quoted or not, I'll consider suspect as possibly "needs improvement" unless I hear otherwise.  And in my words, that is not "student" but "studier" - as in "Studier of language" (Linguist).
Logged

Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!
roger
Taronyu
****

Karma: 22
Offline Offline

Posts: 724


« Reply #390 on: January 29, 2010, 04:49:20 am »

Gotcha. It did look a bit weird to me too, but ll is said to behave like a vowel so.. I dunno.
Well, taw+utral "sky tree" apparently becomes tautral, so in this case wu --> u. We do have /yi/ in seiyi, but notice that it doesn't occur in any morphemes. /wu/ does occur in one, per the SG, assuming it's legit. But it's very common for languages to disallow sequences of vowel and like approximant (*yi, *wu, etc.), and *lll, *rrr would follow that pattern. I wonder how many people could reliably distinguish *pollltxe from *polltxe? That would be even more difficult than /yi, wu/, which at least we have in English.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 04:54:37 am by roger » Logged
dcb
Ketuwong
*

Karma: 0
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


« Reply #391 on: January 29, 2010, 05:40:17 am »

Hi Taronyu,

I wondered about the entry for Forest Banshee:

forest banshee: SG n. ikranay [ikranaj] (dubious:+ay would make banshees)

I think that the + just indicates that adding ay would make the plural. But that is a bit inconsistent with the key where + indicates a morpheme  boundary that triggers lenition.

I hope that this is helpful.
Logged
Mirri
'Eveng
***

Karma: 6
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


Taronlì'uyu


« Reply #392 on: January 29, 2010, 06:00:22 am »

Would be nice if you could include all source material in the corpus for analysis. For example, that looks like an attestation of ftiayu for "student" that we didn't have before.
And that is precisely a good reason NOT to include everything.

The part with "ftiayu" is where he was quoting me (... san ke lu oe kea ftiayu lelì'fya sìk... the part in the middle were my words), not speaking his own words, so don't read anything into it.  He also said that he did have a few comments on my Na'vi but did not have time to get to it right then.  So anything I said in Na'vi, quoted or not, I'll consider suspect as possibly "needs improvement" unless I hear otherwise.  And in my words, that is not "student" but "studier" - as in "Studier of language" (Linguist).

Oh yeah, student would be ftiatu, I guess.

Alright, I get that you shouldn't include your own lines that Frommer hasn't okayed. So what makes you think txantsan is kosher? Wink

There seems to be this hidden web of intriguing emails, and you can probably tell by now that it's very difficult for someone standing outside to understand your arguments if you don't disclose the information you have. So put a big "This is my stuff and Frommer didn't sign off on it" mark on the stuff that's suspect, but let's see the rest.


Gotcha. It did look a bit weird to me too, but ll is said to behave like a vowel so.. I dunno.
Well, taw+utral "sky tree" apparently becomes tautral, so in this case wu --> u. We do have /yi/ in seiyi, but notice that it doesn't occur in any morphemes. /wu/ does occur in one, per the SG, assuming it's legit. But it's very common for languages to disallow sequences of vowel and like approximant (*yi, *wu, etc.), and *lll, *rrr would follow that pattern. I wonder how many people could reliably distinguish *pollltxe from *polltxe? That would be even more difficult than /yi, wu/, which at least we have in English.

Well, that was my point. Why isn't it polltxe?


For the dictionary:
Could we have an entry for awnga, please? I forget what it is, I think it's a short contraction version of something.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 06:10:56 am by Mirri » Logged

Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.
Lance R. Casey
Ikran Makto
*****
*

Karma: 56
Offline Offline

Sweden Sweden

Posts: 940


Man cenuva métim' andúnë?


« Reply #393 on: January 29, 2010, 06:26:57 am »

Well, that was my point. Why isn't it polltxe?

The infixes are probably important enough to be considered invariant, and losing the final consonant for some reason is apparently prohibited. Hence seiyi rather than **seyi or even **sei.

For the dictionary:
Could we have an entry for awnga, please? I forget what it is, I think it's a short contraction version of something.

It's a contraction of the first person plural inclusive pronoun ayoeng.
Logged


// Lance R. Casey
Lance R. Casey
Ikran Makto
*****
*

Karma: 56
Offline Offline

Sweden Sweden

Posts: 940


Man cenuva métim' andúnë?


« Reply #394 on: January 29, 2010, 06:43:42 am »

Two new words...

txula: v. build, construct
txantsan: adj. excellent

(Both sourced from Frommer email)

And the expected frakrr always (adv.).
Logged


// Lance R. Casey
Erimeyz
Taronyu
****

Karma: 33
Offline Offline

Posts: 555


« Reply #395 on: January 29, 2010, 02:03:43 pm »

Would be nice if you could include all source material in the corpus for analysis. For example, that looks like an attestation of ftiayu for "student" that we didn't have before.

The part with "ftiayu" is where he was quoting me (... san ke lu oe kea ftiayu lelì'fya sìk... the part in the middle were my words), not speaking his own words, so don't read anything into it.


You even confused Kwami with that one!  ... for all of fifteen minutes, anyway.

  - Eri
Logged
Taronyu
Meals on wheels
Olo'eyktan Anawm
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 154
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 2706


Lacho Calad! Drego Morn!


WWW
« Reply #396 on: January 29, 2010, 02:22:14 pm »

Edited a lot. (mostly some poor coding of mine, to do with marking words as derived or compounded.)

7.164 Switched infix positions 1 and 2 based on kerusey Skyinou, added nìawnomum as we know Tuiq, deleted tapirus, added Seyvaro Eight, added *vitra soul, edited pängkxo mirri, changed pronunciation of ayoe, ayoeng, nìayoeng, ow, oeng, ohe, poe roger, added txula, txuntsan, frakrr build, excellent, always steven, edited ikranay dcb, edited entry notation for emza'u, Eywa'eveng, fay+, fìtxan, futa, fwa, lì'fya, nì'it, nìtxan, pamtseo, pänutìng, ralpeng, reltseo, sìlronsem, tautral, Tawkami, teswotìng, tìpawm, tìyawn, toruk makto, Vitrautral T
Logged

Lance R. Casey
Ikran Makto
*****
*

Karma: 56
Offline Offline

Sweden Sweden

Posts: 940


Man cenuva métim' andúnë?


« Reply #397 on: January 29, 2010, 03:09:21 pm »

Switched infix positions 1 and 2 based on kerusey

Uh, what? Kerusey is ke + r<us>ey, not k<er><us>ey. We have it from the best of sources that <us> comes before tense, aspect and mood infixes. And speaking of sources, why not adopt the Frommerian position labels (first, second and "pre-first") to avoid confusion?
Logged


// Lance R. Casey
Mirri
'Eveng
***

Karma: 6
Offline Offline

Posts: 219


Taronlì'uyu


« Reply #398 on: January 29, 2010, 03:11:37 pm »

Edited a lot. (mostly some poor coding of mine, to do with marking words as derived or compounded.)

7.164 Switched infix positions 1 and 2 based on kerusey Skyinou, added nìawnomum as we know Tuiq, deleted tapirus, added Seyvaro Eight, added *vitra soul, edited pängkxo mirri, changed pronunciation of ayoe, ayoeng, nìayoeng, ow, oeng, ohe, poe roger, added txula, txuntsan, frakrr build, excellent, always steven, edited ikranay dcb, edited entry notation for emza'u, Eywa'eveng, fay+, fìtxan, futa, fwa, lì'fya, nì'it, nìtxan, pamtseo, pänutìng, ralpeng, reltseo, sìlronsem, tautral, Tawkami, teswotìng, tìpawm, tìyawn, toruk makto, Vitrautral T

I say if you're going to keep nulkrr in there, nulnew should be added too as both are attested.

The entry on 'si' needs to be updated based on what we know now (auxiliary verb only).

I'm still not entirely happy with the derivation of ler*. The English definition of colleague is either "someone you work with", or (which I think might be more appropriate here) "a person who is a member of one's class or profession".
Ler could be work, but it could just as well be class, craft, or occupation.
Frankly I'm still puzzled the Na'vi even have a word for work, since they don't seem to have an economy, but I guess it can be solely in the sense of "activity directed at making or doing something"   Undecided

And if you don't want to make a separate entry for awnga, please at least mention it under ayoeng, since it's completely unintuitive Tongue  (where'd the a at the end come from?)
Logged

Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.
Lance R. Casey
Ikran Makto
*****
*

Karma: 56
Offline Offline

Sweden Sweden

Posts: 940


Man cenuva métim' andúnë?


« Reply #399 on: January 29, 2010, 03:19:39 pm »

And if you don't want to make a separate entry for awnga, please at least mention it under ayoeng, since it's completely unintuitive Tongue  (where'd the a at the end come from?)
Oeng is a contracted form of oe+nga, which is exactly what it is: "you and me". Ayoeng is simply the plural of this, and awnga is a contraction of the underlying form ayoenga. Also, oeng and its number derivatives revert to oenga- when inflected.

This is, at least, what WP says. Smiley


As for the dictionary, tsakrr is still missing as a separate entry, although it's given as a source form under tsa-.
Logged


// Lance R. Casey
Pages: 1 ... 16 17 18 19 [20] 21 22 23 24 ... 103   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Powered by SMF | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC | Sitemap | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, or the Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Navilator, the Na'vi Translator | Na'viteri

Custom video game and anime Piano Transcriptions - professional piano arrangements!
Love a cappella? Learn more on the a cappella wiki: Map | Male a cappella groups | Female a cappella groups and more.