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Mirri
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« Reply #375 on: January 28, 2010, 01:46:24 pm »

nulnew: Inferred from pick-up lines article, but given the context in the line in question, I don't quite agree with it.
Er... huh?  The context makes it clear, and it is clearly analyzable as nul-new: "more-want."  Maybe I'm not getting your meaning here...

My problem comes from how the sentence is worded:

Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä
not be no-one that prefer(SJV) I him/her-with commune under tree voices-of
There is no one that I'd prefer to commune with under the Tree of Voices

To me it looks like a straight translation of nulnew as "prefer" changes the basic meaning of the utterance (of all possible partners, no one stands out).

Did that make sense?


I agree the way you've worded it in English makes it seem ambiguous, but I think the Na'vi meaning is clear. It's English that's muddled up, because you try to translate it and then when you read the translation back again, it has more than one meaning Smiley

Ke lu kawtu a nulnivew oe pohu tireapivängkxo äo Utral Aymokriyä
Not be no-one that more-want-SJV I he/she-with spirit-convey-SJV under Tree of Voices.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 01:51:17 pm by Mirri » Logged

Ngaya poanìl new mune 'uti: hrrap sì uvan. Talun poanìl new ayfoeti -- ayfo lu lehrrap ayu leuvan.
Mirri
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« Reply #376 on: January 28, 2010, 04:20:38 pm »

Can we make an educated guess at "vitra" being the noun "soul"?

Tree of Souls: Vitrautral. (soul tree)
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Lance R. Casey
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« Reply #377 on: January 28, 2010, 04:32:02 pm »

Can we make an educated guess at "vitra" being the noun "soul"?

Tree of Souls: Vitrautral. (soul tree)

It's also found in Ayvitrayä Ramunong Well of Souls, which is what Grace calls the place in the movie, so I'd accept vitra as "soul".

And, regarding the previous subject:
No, I don't have a problem with the Na'vi line as such. What I was getting at is that at least to me, the inclusion of nulnew as a simple "prefer (v.)" in the dictionary might not be entirely accurate -- but not entirely inaccurate either. When I read the sentence, I interpret nulnew as new with an applied modifier rather than a verb in its own right. Others might not.
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Mirri
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« Reply #378 on: January 28, 2010, 04:43:37 pm »

Can we make an educated guess at "vitra" being the noun "soul"?

Tree of Souls: Vitrautral. (soul tree)

It's also found in Ayvitrayä Ramunong Well of Souls, which is what Grace calls the place in the movie, so I'd accept vitra as "soul".

And, regarding the previous subject:
No, I don't have a problem with the Na'vi line as such. What I was getting at is that at least to me, the inclusion of nulnew as a simple "prefer (v.)" in the dictionary might not be entirely accurate -- but not entirely inaccurate either. When I read the sentence, I interpret nulnew as new with an applied modifier rather than a verb in its own right. Others might not.

I agree with you there, I think this is more evidence that nul is a modifier. Nulnew appears to be a modified word, rather than a word of its own, but it's still canon and should go in the corpus.
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Erimeyz
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« Reply #379 on: January 28, 2010, 05:11:34 pm »

I agree with you there, I think this is more evidence that nul is a modifier. Nulnew appears to be a modified word, rather than a word of its own, but it's still canon and should go in the corpus.


On that note...

The wiki has had a Corpus page for a while (started by wm.annis - thanks!) to document every scrap of the corpus we can get our grubby little hands on.  It recently got a Canon page to document the canonical sources from which both the corpus and the revealed grammar rules are drawn from.  And even more recently, Na'rìghawnu has been doing amazing work in building a Lexicon page, working her way through the corpus and adding words complete with specific examples from, and citations to, the corpus.

The wiki lexicon page isn't as complete as Taronyu's dictionary, yet.  It doesn't contain derived words, and there's still a good ways to go before even all the strictly canonical words have been added from the corpus.  But it's getting there...

... and everyone can help.  If you ever find yourself saying "it's canon and should go in the corpus", extend that sentiment a bit and say "it's Canon and should go in the Corpus page on the Learn Na'vi wiki".  And then say "... and I'm going to go add it now."

  - Eri
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roger
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« Reply #380 on: January 28, 2010, 09:17:02 pm »

ayoeng is pronounced [aj'weŋ]
oe- is also [we]
IPA of oeng not clear. might be [weng]
We sure about the [we], now?

I think the rest has been answered by others, so I'll just take this one.

There are multiple lines of evidence that the oe form a single syllable in many derivations, though in plain oe itself they are two, and that this syllable is pronounced [we-].
(1) it's consistently marked ayoeng, etc.;
(2) Frommer states that awnga- is shorter than ayoenga- by one syllable:
   "The advantage of the aw[nga] forms ... is that most of the declined forms are 2 syllables rather than 3, or 3 rather than 4. Example: ayoengal (3 syll.) vs. awngal (2 syll.)."
(3) F says that nga yawne lu oer has five syllables;
(4) it's pronounced this way by him in the Hunt Song and in the movie;
(5) this can't happen in some forms, because it would result in illegal C clusters:
  "No new C-clusters! ... In the dual and trial, the stress on the oe element does not shift. So pxoengaru has 4 syllables." That is, stress shift results in syllable reduction, as "ayoeng" etc. would suggest, and this can't happen in some forms because the resulting consonant would be illegal;
(6) there cannot be more than one vowel in a syllable;
(7) the only likely consonantal homologue of [ o ] is [ w ] (both rounded, both dorsal), confirming the fairly clear pronunciation of Frommer and the film.
( 8 ) the formal pronoun ohe also shifts stress to the e in these derived forms, though in this case there appears to be no further change.

I don't know all the forms that have the stress shift and concomitant [ o ] --> [ we ]. Oe is oe; I've heard oel both ways; however, all attested syllabic prefixes, as well as historically syllabic prefixes such as -r and -ng, have the shift; the prefixes m-, px- block the shift.
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« Reply #381 on: January 28, 2010, 10:35:22 pm »

Two new words...

txula: v. build, construct
txantsan: adj. excellent

(Both sourced from Frommer email)
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« Reply #382 on: January 28, 2010, 11:58:28 pm »

Also, "si" does not literally mean "do, make", but it is an auxiliary verb for forming compound verbs.
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roger
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« Reply #383 on: January 29, 2010, 01:04:33 am »

Ah, finally, real attestation for what sgelceg means:

Quote
Explanation: “Tawsìp” is actually “sky ship,” the term they would use for a space vehicle. (I assume we’re talking space ships here, not ocean liners.) “Sìp” is obviously borrowed from English. “Sngeltseng” means garbage dump, but I hope that’s close enough.

That was here: http://www.ugo.com/movies/we-translate-your-phrases-into-navi
I knew it was around somewhere.

And relating to another question that's come up:

Quote
And I’m not sure if they even have the concept of buying.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 01:06:33 am by roger » Logged
Mirri
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« Reply #384 on: January 29, 2010, 03:02:11 am »

Two new words...

txula: v. build, construct
txantsan: adj. excellent

(Both sourced from Frommer email)

I found txula in the email. Where'd you get txantsan from?


And relating to another question that's come up:

Quote
And I’m not sure if they even have the concept of buying.

Surely they must have a concept of acquiring something, though? Even if it is a gift economy.
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« Reply #385 on: January 29, 2010, 03:08:29 am »

I found txula in the email. Where'd you get txantsan from?
I'd only included the relevant parts of the email as far as grammar information.  The word was from a couple brief sentences he gave in Na'vi (In response to a paragraphish I'd included).
Quote
Poltxe nga san ke lu oe kea ftiayu lelì'fya sìk, slä law lu oeru, ngeyä lì'fya leNa'vi txantsan leiu nìngay!
[txantsan (stress on 1st) = excellent]
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Mirri
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« Reply #386 on: January 29, 2010, 03:20:12 am »

I found txula in the email. Where'd you get txantsan from?
I'd only included the relevant parts of the email as far as grammar information.  The word was from a couple brief sentences he gave in Na'vi (In response to a paragraphish I'd included).
Quote
Poltxe nga san ke lu oe kea ftiayu lelì'fya sìk, slä law lu oeru, ngeyä lì'fya leNa'vi txantsan leiu nìngay!
[txantsan (stress on 1st) = excellent]

Would be nice if you could include all source material in the corpus for analysis. For example, that looks like an attestation of ftiayu for "student" that we didn't have before.

And <ol> eats the ll in plltxe..?
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« Reply #387 on: January 29, 2010, 03:24:46 am »

And <ol> eats the ll in plltxe..?
Yes, that's been attested elsewhere. Evidently you can't have lll; prob'ly not rrr either, if I had to guess.
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Mirri
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« Reply #388 on: January 29, 2010, 03:30:28 am »

And <ol> eats the ll in plltxe..?
Yes, that's been attested elsewhere. Evidently you can't have lll; prob'ly not rrr either, if I had to guess.

Gotcha. It did look a bit weird to me too, but ll is said to behave like a vowel so.. I dunno.


Another correction for our Na'wiktionary:
 pängkxo should be "chat, converse" (never liked the informalness of "chat" as a translation for that one)
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« Reply #389 on: January 29, 2010, 03:39:12 am »

Would be nice if you could include all source material in the corpus for analysis. For example, that looks like an attestation of ftiayu for "student" that we didn't have before.
And that is precisely a good reason NOT to include everything.

The part with "ftiayu" is where he was quoting me (... san ke lu oe kea ftiayu lelì'fya sìk... the part in the middle were my words), not speaking his own words, so don't read anything into it.  He also said that he did have a few comments on my Na'vi but did not have time to get to it right then.  So anything I said in Na'vi, quoted or not, I'll consider suspect as possibly "needs improvement" unless I hear otherwise.  And in my words, that is not "student" but "studier" - as in "Studier of language" (Linguist).
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