The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)

Started by Tseyk Tìriuä, February 01, 2010, 06:42:14 PM

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Tseyk Tìriuä

I sent an email to Frommer inquiring about the reflexive infix and he responded! Here's a copy of the email:
QuoteKaltxì ma oeyä 'eylan,

Thanks for the questions, Jake. (Good name for someone who likes Avatar!)

I guess I haven't mentioned anything about the reflexive yet. Here's a quick explanation:

The reflexive is formed with an infix -äp- that's in "pre-first" position--that is, it comes before the familiar infixes in first position.

So:

I see myself.  = Oe tsäpe'a.

Note: There's no pronoun "myself"--all you need is the infix. And it's oe, not oel.

You've seen yourself. = Nga tsäpole'a.

Be careful to keep the stress in the original place. Since for tse'a the stress is on the final a, that's where it stays in all the inflected forms.

They'll see themselves. = (Ay)fo tsäpaye'a.

wash = yur

So:

I wash myself. = Oe yäpur.
I'm washing myself. = Oe yäperur.

Tslolam srak? :-)

As for "My name is . . ."

You COULD say

Tstxo oeyä lu ___.

tstxo = name

But that's not the idiomatic way to say it. Instead, you say "They call me . . ." (which is of course common in many earth languages as well).

The grammar here is tricky:

Oeru syaw fko ___.

Things to note:

syaw 'call' is intransitive: you call TO someone. That's why it's fko, not fkol, and oeru, not oeti. (Fko, as I think you know, means 'one' or 'they' in the general sense.) The actual name as almost like an adverb in this construction: To say "My name is Jake," you actually say something like, "They call to me in a Jake way." :-)

The question, by the way, is:

Fyape fko syaw ngar?

Literally: How does one call you?

So a typical little conversation is:

--Fyape fko syaw ngar?
--Oeru syaw fko Neytiri. Ngaru tut?
--Oeru syaw Tseyk.

In the last sentence, "fko" is understood. You could actually leave it out in the 2nd sentences as well. Ngar and ngaru are used interchangeably--pick the one you think sounds better in its position. And "tut" is a "particle of continuation"--here you'd translate "ngaru tut" as "And how about you?"

Hope that helps! Feel free to share . . .

Kìyevame.

Pawl



So alot of questions answered! That reflexive infix and how someone would introduce themselves with their name!


Tengkrr tìsngä'i Yawäl peyä tsenget ulte kifkey Yawä'evangäti ngamop.

demonmaestro


wm.annis

Suh-weet!

Canonified.

The yur wash example is very suggestive of some interesting transitivity matters.

suomichris

Quote from: wm.annis on February 01, 2010, 06:52:26 PM
Suh-weet!

Canonified.

The yur wash example is very suggestive of some interesting transitivity matters.
Weeeeeee!

And, yeah, looks like the reflexive is both reflexivizing and reducing the valency of the verb.  Not surprising, I suppose, but cool!

Tseyk Tìriuä

Yeah it is so exciting...and the introductions using names too! Paul Frommer is the best!


Tengkrr tìsngä'i Yawäl peyä tsenget ulte kifkey Yawä'evangäti ngamop.

wm.annis

Oh, gosh — tut is very interesting, too.

I've been using Ulte ngaru srak? as a followup to being asked how I am via ngaru lu fpom srak.  Looks like ngaru tut will work for that, too.

Keylstxatsmen

Quote from: wm.annis on February 01, 2010, 06:57:35 PM
Oh, gosh — tut is very interesting, too.

I've been using Ulte ngaru srak? as a followup to being asked how I am via ngaru lu fpom srak.  Looks like ngaru tut will work for that, too.

Tut is definitely interesting! (says the guy who loves particles) :)

-Keyl
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte' leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

omängum fra'uti

Sweet, I can finally stop telling people not to use "syaw" for giving their name, and start telling them how to do it correctly!
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Tseyk Tìriuä



Tengkrr tìsngä'i Yawäl peyä tsenget ulte kifkey Yawä'evangäti ngamop.


Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn

Naruto Shippuden Episode 166: Confession
                                    Watch it, Love it, Live it

Java

Is this rule going to be added to the pocket guide or other grammar guides? I hope so  :)

Tseyk Tìriuä

I'm sure it will be added shortly (they are good with this kind of stuff).


Tengkrr tìsngä'i Yawäl peyä tsenget ulte kifkey Yawä'evangäti ngamop.

Nume fpi sänume

Excellent, great to know I can now properly introduce myself :) Its been bugging me for a while.

Tseyk Tìriuä

Yes haha enough of that poorly slapped together intro grammar! xD


Tengkrr tìsngä'i Yawäl peyä tsenget ulte kifkey Yawä'evangäti ngamop.

Eight

New merchandise idea...

"We <3 Frommer"

I've never needed the reflexive yet but I feel strangely warm inside now that I know it's here. It's like a little part of me that was missing has just found its own way back.

Plumps

Great!

I've noticed now a lot of specific sentence construction (idioms? phrases?) with "my name is...", "I love you" and "I have" and I'm sure I'm missing out on others - has anyone tried to collect them to put them into a document?

Other thing that I noticed - Frommer calls it pre-first position. Does that speak against the theory (I don't know who came up with it in the first place) of3 infix positions?

omängum fra'uti

Quote from: Plumps83 on February 02, 2010, 03:51:17 AM
Great!

I've noticed now a lot of specific sentence construction (idioms? phrases?) with "my name is...", "I love you" and "I have" and I'm sure I'm missing out on others - has anyone tried to collect them to put them into a document?

Other thing that I noticed - Frommer calls it pre-first position. Does that speak against the theory (I don't know who came up with it in the first place) of3 infix positions?

That's actually a very good idea... :D  I figured with how many expressions we have at this point, it was about time to think about such a collection.

And about the 2 vs 3 infix positions, Frommer has always called it two, because there are two positions.  The penultimate and the ultimate syllable positions.  The 3 positions is just adding a third label.  IMO it's not a good idea, but I'm sure I've made that clear in my other thread.  I'm not sure if it will be possible to convince the people teaching it that it is a bad idea though.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

roger

Quote from: omängum fra'uti on February 02, 2010, 03:56:55 AM
And about the 2 vs 3 infix positions, Frommer has always called it two, because there are two positions.  The penultimate and the ultimate syllable positions.  The 3 positions is just adding a third label.  IMO it's not a good idea, but I'm sure I've made that clear in my other thread.  I'm not sure if it will be possible to convince the people teaching it that it is a bad idea though.
That may depend on how much we know about the language. When all we knew of position 1 / pre-1 was the participle, which we still don't know how to use properly, calling that "position 1" and the TAM markers "position 2" was a way to keep things separated. Now that we can start inflecting verbs on our own with both "pre-1" and TAM, we can create enough examples to illustrate the diff, and pretending there are 3 separate infix positions is IMO no longer required. We can just say that when TAM and non-TAM are both used, non-TAM comes first; when two TAM markers are used, aspect infixes into tense and both infix into mood, and that when two tense markers are used, AFAIK they go in temporal order. That's just a way of juggling multiple infixes in position 1, a problem that does not occur w position 2 because only one infix can occur there at a time.

omängum fra'uti

We know as much about the participle now as we did then though.  The only thing we know now that we didn't know then is how subjunctive and tense meld, and what the reflexive infix is.  The rest we either had a correct assumption about or still don't know.  The participle being pre-first, for example, is based on a statement from Frommer that is unclear at best.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!