Tìtusaron, Tìtaron and Sätaron - What?

Started by Tìtstewan, October 30, 2013, 08:48:08 PM

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`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

#20
That is an interesting question. The normal rule would be to use fwa with intransitive verbs, and a fìʼul (with a complex patient to its left) with transitive verbs. In most cases of a transitive verb though, the patient is a single word, and no f-word is needed. In this case though, it could be that fwa is appropriate because there really is no patient (or need for case markings), and 'o' lu is more like a predicate.

And why is this wrong?
Quote2. Use the tì- <us> on a non -si verb Oe lu tìslusele tìslusele lu 'o' 'schwimming is fun'.

I don't think this is a case of a gerund taking an argument, as lu is the verb in the sentence.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Plumps

#21
Quote from: Taronyu Leleioae on November 02, 2013, 07:58:00 PMWell, progressive form in English, is the "to be" verb followed usually by the present participle which is the "ing" form of a verb.
"I am studying."
But this would require using lu.

Thought too Englishy, my friend ;)
‹er› in this instance already includes what in English becomes 'am/is/are studying' in translation. Same as the combined form oe ftarmia (ft‹a‹r›m›ia) 'I was studying' already includes the past form of the verb (via ‹am›) and the imperfective aspect (via ‹r› from ‹er›).

It's like putting all this in information in study > I st‹am›ud‹ing›y maybe? :-\ ;D ;D ;D





Quote from: Taronyu Leleioae on November 02, 2013, 07:58:00 PMBUT I HAVE A QUESTION...
In NiaN, fwa is mentioned as used with intransitive verbs?  Is this incorrect?  > "Yom" is transitive in the Horen example...
This example of "fwa yom teylut 'o' lu" is being credited to Karyu Pawl from the source [Ultxa 3/10/2010].
Thus... is this another error in NiaN v2.8 to add to the list?  I do not see a comment in Horen requiring intransitive verbs with fwa...
Quote from: Tìtstewan on November 02, 2013, 08:02:42 PMThis. That should be *theoretically* "fì'ul yom teylut 'o' lu". ???

Do we need to go through the f-words again? ;D ;D ;D
fwa yom teylut 'o' lu is really 2 sentences (even in English): (1) 'something is fun'  and (2) 'the action of eating something'

(1) = 'uo lu 'o' which in this construct becomes 'this (thing) is fun' = fì'u lu 'o'
(2) = yom 'uot which becomes specified since we're speaking about 'eating teylu' = yom teylut

These two sentences are combined with our all-time favorite a, making them
(2) yom teylut a (1) fì'u lu 'o'.

Turning this around and this combined sentence becomes
fì'u a yom teylut lu 'o' > fwa yom teylut lu 'o'

So, the fwa really belongs to lu 'o' (a sentence with an intransitive verb ;) ) rather than being the subject (or object) of yom (a transitive verb) ;)

If it were *fì'ul yom teylut lu 'o' this would mean 'this thing eats teylu' but the lu 'o' part has no way of meaningfully connecting to the rest of the sentence.





Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on November 02, 2013, 09:02:42 PMAnd why is this wrong?
Quote2. Use the tì- <us> on a non -si verb Oe lu tìslusele tìslusele lu 'o' 'schwimming is fun'.

I don't think this is a case of a gerund taking an argument, as lu is the verb in the sentence.

Alright, taking this from a different perspective to show you the difference: Wikipedia defines the gerund as
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerundthe form that names the action of the verb (for instance, playing is the action of 'to play').
So, tìyusom is the action of 'to eat', tìslusele is the action of 'to swim', tìtusul is the action of 'to run' etc.

If you say tìyusom sunu oeru 'I like eating' then this is really 'the action of 'to eat' is pleasing to me' which makes sense because you are describing a noun ('the action is pleasing to me')

Likewise, *oe lu tìslusele would then mean 'I am the action of 'to swim'' and that to me makes no sense!!!

Tìtstewan

 :o I have really no idea, what's wrong with me... These last days I've did one fail after another... This is really embarrassing. :-[ :-[ :-[

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Lance R. Casey

Quote from: Plumps on November 02, 2013, 07:14:10 PM
The formulation is "They may not take subjects or direct objects" (see, Horen §6.9.2). That means that you can't use a transitive verb with a gerund as in "running kills me" *tìtusulìl oeti tspang* That is not possible!
Actually, you're confusing two separate matters here. The verb that is made into a gerund cannot as such accomodate a subject or object, but the nominalized gerund form can itself be a subject or object to another verb, transitive or not. So,

   Tìtusulìl oeti tspang

is fine, but

   *Tìyusom teylut sunu oeru

is not. For a Frommerian example, see point 4 in this comment on Na'viteri:

   Oel kan'ìn tì'usemit

// Lance R. Casey

Plumps

I stand corrected. :D Thanks for pointing that out, ma Lance, and great to see you back ;)
I knew I had something confused. Probably because German doesn't form gerund/direct object pairs like that.
Wasn't there something with a genitive as well?

Tìtstewan

Quote from: Plumps on November 03, 2013, 05:32:10 AM
Wasn't there something with a genitive as well?
Do you mean like this:
Quote from: http://naviteri.org/2011/01/new-year-new-vocabulary/5. SÄ'o (n.) 'tool, utensil'
Na'viri txina sä'o tìtusaronä lu tsko swizaw.
'For the Na'vi the bow and arrow is the main hunting tool.'
Quote from: http://naviteri.org/2012/10/mipa-vospxi-mipa-ayliu-new-words-for-the-new-month/Neytiril Tsyeykur wamìntxu Omatikayaä vefyat tìtusaronä.
'Neytiri showed Jake the Omatikaya's approach to hunting.'

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Blue Elf

Quote from: Tìtstewan on November 03, 2013, 03:46:08 AM
:o I have really no idea, what's wrong with me... These last days I've did one fail after another... This is really embarrassing. :-[ :-[ :-[
Small paraphrase: Day I do not make any mistake is wrong day. ;D
Mistake occurs to everyone - to you, to me, to ever better people..... that simply occurs. One can't to avoid this, but can take lesson from the mistake.

QuoteThis. That should be *theoretically* "fì'ul yom teylut 'o' lu".
Well, to select correct f-word you must correctly identify main clause and subordinate clause, that's all.
Analysis was already done by Plumps, so I will not repeat him. But I'm thinking to create post about f-words in beginners section. Probably it'll be usefull.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Taronyu Leleioae

#27
Quote from: Tìtstewan on November 03, 2013, 03:46:08 AM
:o I have really no idea, what's wrong with me... These last days I've did one fail after another... This is really embarrassing. :-[ :-[ :-[
What makes you think this is an easy topic, especially if you aren't an educated linguist major?  
I do not think this has ever really been explained well on the beginner's/non-linguistic level really combined with clauses.  
It's certainly not a beginner's focus.
Thus...
Quote from: Blue Elf on November 03, 2013, 06:00:02 AM
...But I'm thinking to create post about f-words in beginners section. Probably it'll be useful.
Maybe this is more appropriate to be an intermediate topic as it is about complex sentences?
Perhaps write a post, (the f-words as a quick review would be good), but have the post focus on identifying clauses and include examples to show where the actual clause is, in the sentence, that the -a is connected to.  Especially where Na'vi has semi-flexible word order.  In this case, it was confusing us because fwa was next to yom.  Myself, I didn't understand that one could separate fwa from the verb it was modifying, and then move it to the front of the sentence (away from that clause within that sentence).

Plumps

True, ma Tìtstwan, don't beat yourself too hard over this.
Grammar can be confusing.


Quote from: Tìtstewan on November 03, 2013, 05:41:58 AM
Quote from: Plumps on November 03, 2013, 05:32:10 AM
Wasn't there something with a genitive as well?
Do you mean like this:
...

:-\ No, I thought more of whether a gerund can take a genitive, like *tìyusom teyluä 'the eating of the teylu' ???

Tìtstewan

Quote from: Taronyu Leleioae on November 03, 2013, 09:28:21 AM
Quote from: Tìtstewan on November 03, 2013, 03:46:08 AM
:o I have really no idea, what's wrong with me... These last days I've did one fail after another... This is really embarrassing. :-[ :-[ :-[
What makes you think this is an easy topic, especially if you aren't an educated linguist major? [...]
I mean not I did that only here, I did that everywhere in the past four days...
I know these rule, but I forgetting it, if I want / have to use them.

Quote from: Plumps on November 03, 2013, 09:51:27 AM
Quote from: Tìtstewan on November 03, 2013, 05:41:58 AM
Quote from: Plumps on November 03, 2013, 05:32:10 AM
Wasn't there something with a genitive as well?
Do you mean like this:
...

:-\ No, I thought more of whether a gerund can take a genitive, like *tìyusom teyluä 'the eating of the teylu' ???
I would say, why not? I see nothing strange there.

Tìyusom teyluä lu lekin fte rivey.
Das Essen des Teylu ist notwendig um zu leben. OR Das Teylu-Essen ist notwendig um zu leben.
The eating of Teylu is necessary to live.


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`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I kind of like tìyusom teyluä. That brings to mind things like 'The piping of the haggis' and many other similar forms.

I probably make more mistakes than anyone else. And if I had to use my Na'vi to address Neytiri when she had her tskxo drawn at me, I would probably have a sizeable hole in my chest, and nothing to show for it ;)

There are a couple of incredibly useful little nuggets of wisdom and instruction here, especially about participles and gerunds. Sometimes it is hard to decide if you need a participle or an <er> verb; I think this clears a lot of the confusion. Now, if I can remember them...  :-\

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Lance R. Casey

Quote from: Plumps on November 03, 2013, 09:51:27 AM
:-\ No, I thought more of whether a gerund can take a genitive, like *tìyusom teyluä 'the eating of the teylu' ???
Not for now. ;)

// Lance R. Casey

Plumps

Quote from: Lance R. Casey on November 04, 2013, 05:33:18 AM
Quote from: Plumps on November 03, 2013, 09:51:27 AM
:-\ No, I thought more of whether a gerund can take a genitive, like *tìyusom teyluä 'the eating of the teylu' ???
Not for now. ;)

I knew there was something! Irayo nìtxan!