Tìtusaron, Tìtaron and Sätaron - What?

Started by Tìtstewan, October 30, 2013, 08:48:08 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Tìtstewan

Kaltxì ma frapo!

Well, it was a discussion about this in the Learning Na'vi Vocabulary: The Easy Way thread. In that thread this topic was a bit off-topic there, so I just continue here.

Quote from: Tìtstewan on October 21, 2013, 08:31:33 AM
As far as I know:
sätaron: hunt (in the meaning of an 'instrumental' sense) [ger.: die Jagd]
tìtaron: hunting (in an 'abstract' sense) [ger.: die Jagd]
tìtusaron: hunting (as an 'in action' sense) [ger.: das Jagen]

Here is also an example about sätaron from Na'viteri:
Quote from: Mipa Vospxì, Mipa Aylì'u—New Words for the New MonthEyk Kamun a fralo längu tsasätaron velke nìwotx. Taronyut yom smarìl!
'Every time Kamun is in charge, the hunt is a mess. Everything goes wrong that can.'  

And about tìtusaron:
Quote from: Mipa Vospxì, Mipa Aylì'u—New Words for the New MonthNeytiril Tsyeykur wamìntxu Omatikayaä vefyat tìtusaronä.
'Neytiri showed Jake the Omatikaya's approach to hunting.'    

Quote from: Vocabulary updateTìtusaron mowan lu oer nìngay.
'Hunting really turns me on.'  

Quote from: New Year, New VocabularyNa'viri txina sä'o tìtusaronä lu tsko swizaw.
'For the Na'vi the bow and arrow is the main hunting tool.'  

Quote from: "By the way, what are you reading?"Lam oer fwa tsazìma'uyul ke fnan tìtusaronit.
'It seems to me that that newcomer isn't any good at hunting.'    

Quote from: "By the way, what are you reading?"Tìtusaronìri fte flivä, zene fko sivutx smarit ninan nìno.
'To succeed at hunting, you have to track your prey by reading (the forest) with attention to detail.'  

Quote from: More Vocabulary + a Bit of GrammarTìtusaronìri txo new fko slivu tsulfätu, zene smarto livu walak.
'If you want to become a master hunter, you have to be more active than your prey.'    
Note it's literally: "As for the hunting..."

EDIT: I can't find any example on Na'viteri about tìtaron. Could someone say, where this word was confirmed?
I found only in the wiki this: Tìtaron lu lehrrap. 'Hunting is dangerous.'



Quote from: Tìtstewan on October 22, 2013, 12:30:39 PM
About tìtaron
Here is the post, who appears the sentence Tìtaron lu lehrrap. 'Hunting is dangerous.',
which is also the same sentence like in the LN wiki.

In the dictionary is this:
tìtaron: [tI."ta.Ron] PF n. hunting (derived from taron hunt)
here is the source by PF (Pawl) and what was written there, before we had this:
Quote from: Ordinals & nume June 05, 2013For example, here's some film dialog they asked me for that was never used:

You must learn to hunt with a bow and arrow.
Tsko swizawfa a tìtaronìri zene fko nivume.





Quote from: Plumps on October 21, 2013, 09:49:55 AM
It was part of a film line not used. But I agree, since I only got this line a few months ago, but tìtaron is in the Taronyu way longer we must have come across it at an earlier stage. I would have to do a little digging.
Any result? ???

-| Na'vi Vocab + Audio | Na'viteri as one HTML file | FAQ | Useful Links for Beginners |-
-| Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Plumps

No, the only source I can find is the one from Omängum Fra'uti.

It's beginning to become a puzzle again:
I found this via the Wiki Vocab page. It's in the entry from the 13 Feb 2010.

The tidbits from roger seem to be a longer version of the mail that he published when discussing participles. Why it wasn't posted on the forums, I have no idea :-\ Could have come directly from Frommer.

This could be a goof on K. Pawl's part and he really meant tìtusaron.
But let's not forget the grand scheme of things. From what we know of other nouns with the tì- and sä- distinction, tì- is the abstract word, sä- denotes the concrete event. So I'd go for:
tìtaron – hunt (abstract sense)
sätaron – hunt (the instance of hunting)
tìtusaron – hunting (gerund)

Everything else lies in the way something is translated.
An example for this can be found here in the examples of tìmok vs. sämok in which he translated the tìmok example as "suggesting" and not "suggestion".

Tìtstewan

Quote from: Plumps on October 31, 2013, 06:25:28 AM
This could be a goof on K. Pawl's part and he really meant tìtusaron.
But let's not forget the grand scheme of things. From what we know of other nouns with the tì- and sä- distinction,
tì- is the abstract word, sä- denotes the concrete event. So I'd go for:
tìtaron – hunt (abstract sense)
sätaron – hunt (the instance of hunting)
tìtusaron – hunting (gerund)
As for this, I also think so. (as I wrote this scheme too).

As for tìtaron:
Quote from: Wiki Feb 13, 2010The point of participles in Na'vi is that they're ONLY used attributively. If you want a gerund, use a tì- nominalization:

   1. Tìtaron lu lehrrap. 'Hunting is dangerous.'
^This is 'outdated'...since this:
Quote from: Na'viteri July 11, 2010And when they are, the meanings won't always be predictable: tìftang means 'stopping,' but tìrol doesn't mean 'singing' but rather 'song.'
(Note that when you want to talk about an action—as in "Swimming is great exercise"—you can always use the Na'vi gerund, which is a two-affix form:
use the tì- prefix along with the –us- infix: tìyusom 'eating,' tìtusaron 'hunting,'
etc., and that process is productive. Example: Tìkusar eltur tìtxen si. 'Teaching is interesting.')
Diminutives; Conversational Expressions

How about asking K. Pawl for tìtaron at the next LEP submission? :-\

-| Na'vi Vocab + Audio | Na'viteri as one HTML file | FAQ | Useful Links for Beginners |-
-| Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

#3
The post concerning tìtaron predates the tì- + <us> form (and my existence in the community, by 5 days), so should be considered obsolete.

'hunting' is used in the definition of tìtaron is not really a gerund, although it can be used as such, as a gerund is essentially a noun. I think it is one of those special cases where a word comes out looking like a gerund, even when it isn't. For instance:

tìtaron tsranten Na'viru could be translated as:

Hunting is important to the Na'vi people (The usual way IMHO this would be interpreted)

or

The hunt is important to the Na'vi people. (This is possible, but one would normally put tìtaron into the topical.)

I am sure other examples exist in other languages.

But

Oe lu tìtusul

Can only be translated as 'I am running'.

A similar, but not exactly the same same sort of problem exists for another old Na'vi word:

tì'awm - 'camping'

This definition covers the activity of camping as a 'thing'. Again a noun, but is it really a gerund? I don't think so. Another English-ism. We have a word 'awm that is used to describe a camp. And tì'awm si that is a verb to describe the action of camping. What might be an interesting question to K. Pawl might be if 'awm si wouldn't be a better word for 'camping (verb)'. In any case, 'awm and its derivatives are rarely used words.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Plumps

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on October 31, 2013, 03:48:28 PM
The post concerning tìtaron predates the tì- + <us> form (and my existence in the community, by 5 days), so should be considered obsolete.

True, but that doesn't mean the form didn't already exist in the grammar.
The first evidence of a gerund can be found in GMA in the Golden Rule for living together Koren A'awve Tìruseyä 'Awsiteng (the recording was made on Feb 17, 2010). I can't imagine that he would come up with a new grammatical rule within 4 days ;)

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on October 31, 2013, 03:48:28 PMBut

Oe lu tìtusul

Can only be translated as 'I am running'.

One should probably say that this is a nonsense sentence in Na'vi. It would be the same as *nga lu tìtusaron "you are (the) hunting", *po lu tìyomtusìng "he is (the) feeding"

Blue Elf

Quote from: Plumps on November 01, 2013, 06:15:56 AM
Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on October 31, 2013, 03:48:28 PMBut

Oe lu tìtusul

Can only be translated as 'I am running'.

One should probably say that this is a nonsense sentence in Na'vi. It would be the same as *nga lu tìtusaron "you are (the) hunting", *po lu tìyomtusìng "he is (the) feeding"
This. There's difference in words ending with -ing:
1/ I'm running - here red word is verb (present continuous)
2/ Running is my big hobby - and here it is noun, precisely verbal noun describing action done by verb.

Na'vi counterpart are:
1/ Oe terul
2/ Tìtusul lu oeyä säsulìn.
There two usages aren't interchangeable, you must always choose the correct form
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

#6
OK, I see where I erred here. The -ing form of a verb (per K. pawl) would use <er>. The tì- <us> indeed makes no sense. But hopefully the rest of the points I made were correct. ::)

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Tìtstewan

I'm interested, how we could say "camping" with a gerund meaning in Na'vi?

Tì'awm lu oeyä säsulìn.
'Camping is my hobby.'

Work that?

-| Na'vi Vocab + Audio | Na'viteri as one HTML file | FAQ | Useful Links for Beginners |-
-| Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Plumps

In this instance yes because we know that the simple noun of a noun-si-verb construction functions as the gerund ;)

Blue Elf

Quote from: Plumps on November 01, 2013, 08:07:45 PM
In this instance yes because we know that the simple noun of a noun-si-verb construction functions as the gerund ;)
And by dictionary definition tì'awm is camping :) (not place where you camp - it is 'awm)
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Plumps on November 01, 2013, 08:07:45 PM
In this instance yes because we know that the simple noun of a noun-si-verb construction functions as the gerund ;)

Where do we know this from? Or is it some common sense I am overlooking?

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Blue Elf

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on November 02, 2013, 02:57:48 PM
Quote from: Plumps on November 01, 2013, 08:07:45 PM
In this instance yes because we know that the simple noun of a noun-si-verb construction functions as the gerund ;)

Where do we know this from? Or is it some common sense I am overlooking?
I was said this rule too, but I'm not sure if it is stated officially. Horen says:
5.1.4.1. Tì- ‹us› creates a gerund. It is fully productive for verb roots and compounds (si-construction verbs, §5.3.3, cannot be made into a gerund).
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Plumps

That was discussed at the October 2010 Meetup, see here.

Quote from: omängum fra'utiI DID however remember another couple related comments though, that there are no si- gerunds. Where you would use the gerund form normally, just drop the si and use the base word. So the "gerund" of srung si is just srung.


Blue Elf

Quote from: Plumps on November 02, 2013, 03:44:29 PM
That was discussed at the October 2010 Meetup, see here.

Quote from: omängum fra'utiI DID however remember another couple related comments though, that there are no si- gerunds. Where you would use the gerund form normally, just drop the si and use the base word. So the "gerund" of srung si is just srung.
Also I found it now in wiki: http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Canon/2010/UltxaAyharyu%C3%A4, last paragraph
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

So, if I take this at face value, I could translate 'I am helping' as Oe lu srung. Although if this is the rule, I could live with it, it flies in the face of other things. I believe there are three ways to 'make' a gerund in Na'vi:

1. Use <er>. This would make the above example Oe lu srung seri, which makes far more sense.
2. Use the tì- <us> on a non -si verb Oe lu tìslusele.
3. I quote from Horen: 6.9.2.1. English often uses gerunds to nominalize a phrase ("running a marathon is difficult").
In Na'vi such clause nominalization is handled with fì'u or tsa'u (§6.18.4), fwa yom teylut 'o' lu 'eating teylu is fun'. Ultxa (3/10/2010) I am assuming here that fwa is filling in for fì'u.

In the process of looking this up, I learned that a gerund cannot be used as a predicate. So, *kilvan lu tìtusul would not be correct. (Would kilvan lu terul be correct?)

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Plumps

#15
Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on November 02, 2013, 06:42:33 PM
So, if I take this at face value, I could translate 'I am helping' as Oe lu srung.
Ma 'Eylan Ayfalukanä,
you are confusing the gerund with the progressive form of the verb.
'I am helping' is oe srung seri
The gerund of srung si is just srung, so 'helping is fun' would be srung lu 'o'. Context would make it clear, I guess, whether you actually mean '(the/this) help is fun' or 'helping (= to help somebody) is fun'

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on November 02, 2013, 06:42:33 PMAlthough if this is the rule, I could live with it, it flies in the face of other things. I believe there are three ways to 'make' a gerund in Na'vi:

1. Use <er>. This would make the above example Oe lu srung seri, which makes far more sense.

It's oe srung seri, without lu! This is not a gerund but the progressive form of the verb and in Na'vi the imperfective aspect, to denote that an action is ongoing.

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on November 02, 2013, 06:42:33 PM
2. Use the tì- <us> on a non -si verb Oe lu tìslusele tìslusele lu 'o' 'schwimming is fun'.
3. I quote from Horen: 6.9.2.1. English often uses gerunds to nominalize a phrase ("running a marathon is difficult").
In Na'vi such clause nominalization is handled with fì'u or tsa'u (§6.18.4), fwa yom teylut 'o' lu 'eating teylu is fun'. Ultxa (3/10/2010) I am assuming here that fwa is filling in for fì'u.

The 3rd way would be to take the noun part of a noun-si-construction and use that as a gerund (see above).

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on November 02, 2013, 06:42:33 PMIn the process of looking this up, I learned that a gerund cannot be used as a predicate. So, *kilvan lu tìtusul would not be correct. (Would kilvan lu terul be correct?)

As I pointed out before, that makes no sense ('the river is (the) running'). The formulation is "They may not take subjects or direct objects" (see, Horen §6.9.2). That means that you can't use a transitive verb with a gerund as in "running kills me" *tìtusulìl oeti tspang* That is not possible!
Or, as shown in the examples "eating teylu is fun" (here teylu is the direct object of eating) and thus it has to be transformed via the fì'u a / fwa forms to construct a relative clause, i.e. "the thing that is: to eat teylu, is fun"

Btw, 'the man is running' is tutan terul, if you have a verb, there is no lu necessary.

Tìtstewan

#16
Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on November 02, 2013, 06:42:33 PM
1. Use <er>. This would make the above example Oe lu srung seri, which makes far more sense.
Oe srung s<er>i.
'I am helping'

srung si is a verb, no lu needed.



Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on November 02, 2013, 06:42:33 PM
So, *kilvan lu tìtusul would not be correct. (Would kilvan lu terul be correct?)
Kilvan t<er>ul.
'The river is running.'

tul is also a verb.



As for the Horen 6.9.2.1.
Quote from: http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Canon/2010/UltxaAyharyu%C3%A4#Gerunds_vs._FwaGerunds vs. Fwa

After much discussion about whether or not a gerund can take an object, it was decided that using fwa was best in that situation.

   Fwa yom teylut 'o' lu "Eating teylu is fun."
   Tìyusom 'o' lu "eating is fun."

Most attention was spent on the possibility of using a genitive object of the gerund (tìyusom), but certain ambiguities, as well as "Na'viness,"
came up as objections. He might change his mind on this later, but for now stick with fwa clauses.
This is interesting, but is this not pregressive form? <- nevermind... :-[ *totally confused*


Edit: Plumpsìl tolakuk oet... ;D

-| Na'vi Vocab + Audio | Na'viteri as one HTML file | FAQ | Useful Links for Beginners |-
-| Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Taronyu Leleioae

Quote from: Tìtstewan on November 02, 2013, 07:20:34 PM


As for the Horen 6.9.2.1.
Quote from: http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Canon/2010/UltxaAyharyu%C3%A4#Gerunds_vs._FwaGerunds vs. Fwa

After much discussion about whether or not a gerund can take an object, it was decided that using fwa was best in that situation.

   Fwa yom teylut 'o' lu "Eating teylu is fun."
   Tìyusom 'o' lu "eating is fun."

Most attention was spent on the possibility of using a genitive object of the gerund (tìyusom), but certain ambiguities, as well as "Na'viness,"
came up as objections. He might change his mind on this later, but for now stick with fwa clauses.
This is interesting, but is this not pregressive form?
Well, progressive form in English, is the "to be" verb followed usually by the present participle which is the "ing" form of a verb.
"I am studying."
But this would require using lu.

The fwa construction is buried hidden in NiaN v2.8 in 8.1.3 (p27)
(Obviously not authoritative compared to Horen, but we have examples...)
without beginning to cry > luke fwa sngä'i tsngivawvìk  (note that sngä'i is model, hence needing the following <iv>)
(thus you can have fwa + verb)

=======================================================

BUT I HAVE A QUESTION...
In NiaN, fwa is mentioned as used with intransitive verbs?  Is this incorrect?  > "Yom" is transitive in the Horen example...
This example of "fwa yom teylut 'o' lu" is being credited to Karyu Pawl from the source [Ultxa 3/10/2010].
Thus... is this another error in NiaN v2.8 to add to the list?  I do not see a comment in Horen requiring intransitive verbs with fwa...

Tìtstewan

Quote from: Taronyu Leleioae on November 02, 2013, 07:58:00 PM
Quote from: Tìtstewan on November 02, 2013, 07:20:34 PM


As for the Horen 6.9.2.1.
Quote from: http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Canon/2010/UltxaAyharyu%C3%A4#Gerunds_vs._FwaGerunds vs. Fwa

After much discussion about whether or not a gerund can take an object, it was decided that using fwa was best in that situation.

   Fwa yom teylut 'o' lu "Eating teylu is fun."
   Tìyusom 'o' lu "eating is fun."

Most attention was spent on the possibility of using a genitive object of the gerund (tìyusom), but certain ambiguities, as well as "Na'viness,"
came up as objections. He might change his mind on this later, but for now stick with fwa clauses.
This is interesting, but is this not pregressive form?
Well, progressive form in English, is the "to be" verb followed usually by the present participle which is the "ing" form of a verb.
"I am studying."
But this would require using lu.

The fwa construction is buried hidden in NiaN v2.8 in 8.1.3 (p27)
(Obviously not authoritative compared to Horen, but we have examples...)
without beginning to cry > luke fwa sngä'i tsngivawvìk  (note that sngä'i is model, hence needing the following <iv>)
(thus you can have fwa + verb)
I've saw what I did there...I've edited my post... :-[

Quote from: Taronyu Leleioae on November 02, 2013, 07:58:00 PM
BUT I HAVE A QUESTION...
In NiaN, fwa is mentioned as used with intransitive verbs?  Is this incorrect?  > "Yom" is transitive in the Horen example...
This example of "fwa yom teylut 'o' lu" is being credited to Karyu Pawl from the source [Ultxa 3/10/2010].
Thus... is this another error in NiaN v2.8 to add to the list?  I do not see a comment in Horen requiring intransitive verbs with fwa...
This. That should be *theoretically* "fì'ul yom teylut 'o' lu". ???

-| Na'vi Vocab + Audio | Na'viteri as one HTML file | FAQ | Useful Links for Beginners |-
-| Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Taronyu Leleioae

Quote from: Tìtstewan on November 02, 2013, 08:02:42 PM
Quote from: Taronyu Leleioae on November 02, 2013, 07:58:00 PM
BUT I HAVE A QUESTION...
In NiaN, fwa is mentioned as used with intransitive verbs?  Is this incorrect?  > "Yom" is transitive in the Horen example...
This example of "fwa yom teylut 'o' lu" is being credited to Karyu Pawl from the source [Ultxa 3/10/2010].
Thus... is this another error in NiaN v2.8 to add to the list?  I do not see a comment in Horen requiring intransitive verbs with fwa...
This. That should be *theoretically* "fì'ul yom teylut 'o' lu". ???
That's a big part of my question regarding using fwa only with intransitive verbs, as Fwa = fì'u a...  
Yet the example credited to Frommer is using a transitive verb...

(Admit's this is getting a little off topic, but it's about clarifying using fwa....)