Idiomatic Expressions

[Taronyu]

Ha, I ended an email with a phrase I thought was pretty, and Frommer liked it:

BTW, did you yourself come up with "Ngeyä ikran kawkrr tswivayon nì'awtu"? It's really beautiful. (I'd make just one change: Na'vi likes double negatives, so with kawkrr you use ke with the verb: Ngeyä ikran kawkrr ke tswivayon nì'awtu.

That's exactly what we need much more of in Na'vi: unique, idiomatic expressions that reflect Pandoran life and culture.

Interesting about the double negatives, I wouldn't have thought of that. I ended my response with "Tivìng frakrr ngeyä sanhìrì atanit", but who knows what he'll make of that. I wonder, as anyone else had anything similar? Prrton, wm, roger?

Also, I'd like to seriously apologise to everyone for completely mixing up the stupid imaginary word keltu with Kelku again in all of my Na'vi nì'aw dictionaries. I'm a complete and utter idiot.

[roger]

"Ngeyä ikran kawkrr tswivayon nì'awtu"

Yeah, I like it.

Also, I'd like to seriously apologise to everyone for completely mixing up the stupid imaginary word keltu with Kelku again in all of my Na'vi nì'aw dictionaries.

It was just St Patrick's Day. You're allowed. Goes with the green beer.

[Swoka Swizaw]

"Ngeyä ikran kawkrr ke tswivayon nì'awtu"

That is really nice...and I could read it. Double score.

[Ftiafpi]

hmmmm, maybe we should ask Frommer if he would like us to brainstorm Na'vi idioms/phrases for his approval? Maybe we should just do that anyway?

[Prrton]

Ha, I ended an email with a phrase I thought was pretty, and Frommer liked it:

BTW, did you yourself come up with "Ngeyä ikran kawkrr tswivayon nì'awtu"? It's really beautiful. (I'd make just one change: Na'vi likes double negatives, so with kawkrr you use ke with the verb: Ngeyä ikran kawkrr ke tswivayon nì'awtu.

That's exactly what we need much more of in Na'vi: unique, idiomatic expressions that reflect Pandoran life and culture.

Interesting about the double negatives, I wouldn't have thought of that. I ended my response with "Tivìng frakrr ngeyä sanhìrì atanit", but who knows what he'll make of that. I wonder, as anyone else had anything similar? Prrton, wm, roger?

Peu fu pelì'uteri? Tsaral a tsat ngal keratsan oeru ke lu law nìtam fte tsivun oe 'iveyng... 

[Taronyu]

Ma prrton, ral oeyä aylì'u lu mì tìpawm a tìkenongil tìpängkxoä akelku-tsawlslawnu pawlhu tok ngeyä sìfpe't mì a fkol plltxe tsnì fkoä ronsem sìlstan lu talun tsasìpängkxo a nga salmar?

Ftiafpi, I think we should do that anyway. This seems to me to be affirmation of the idea which one camp of the Na'viä 'eveng belong to - that the language ought to be able to grown organically, not perhaps in ungrammatical expressions but rather through the repeated use of stock phrases which are reminiscent of the nature of the world in which this language is supposed to have been grown. Which I think is a good thing, right?

[Kì'eyawn]

Interesting about the double negatives, I wouldn't have thought of that...

It reminds me of French.  I think of ke...kawkrr as being equivalent to ne...jamais.  If it helps, instead of thinking of kawkrr as "never," think of the whole ke...kawkrr construction as "not ever."  Same with ke...kawtu--"no one" or "not anyone" (compare ne...personne).  Works for me, anyway.

[wm.annis]

I wonder, as anyone else had anything similar? Prrton, wm, roger?

I have been occupied with more basic matters.  Idioms about food, say, are hardly in order when we don't yet have words for "hungry" or "thirsty." 

That said, I've had one phrase idea floating around in my head for a while.  One of the subtle things I enjoyed about the Na'vi were their ears and tails — they were quite expressive.  I've been working with some variation of this:

  mikyun kop plltxe The ear also speaks
  kxetse sì mikyun kop plltxe The tail and ear also speak

The idea is that someone's words might not match their attitude, expression, behavior, etc.  The second is more complete, but I like the shortness and paradoxical twist of the first alone.  These have not been floated before Frommer yet.

[roger]

wouldn't 'ear' need to be dual here?

[wm.annis]

wouldn't 'ear' need to be dual here?

Could be.  I think the personification is stronger in the singular, but I don't know how much the Na'vi go in for that.  We'd need a rulling from Frommer.

[roger]

For information overload, we say "my head is swimming" etc. In Na'vi, how about s.t. like mesaheylu oeru or munea tsaheylu oeru. (Imagine s.o. else plugged into the same horse as you.)

[Kì'eyawn]

I wonder, as anyone else had anything similar? Prrton, wm, roger?

I have been occupied with more basic matters.  Idioms about food, say, are hardly in order when we don't yet have words for "hungry" or "thirsty." 

That said, I've had one phrase idea floating around in my head for a while.  One of the subtle things I enjoyed about the Na'vi were their ears and tails — they were quite expressive.  I've been working with some variation of this:

  mikyun kop plltxe The ear also speaks
  kxetse sì mikyun kop plltxe The tail and ear also speak

The idea is that someone's words might not match their attitude, expression, behavior, etc.  The second is more complete, but I like the shortness and paradoxical twist of the first alone.  These have not been floated before Frommer yet.

I've thought about that a lot, too; i imagine Jake would have a hard time learning to hide his emotions in his new Na'vi body because of this--it would make him a lousy poker player!

[Prrton]

Ma prrton, ral oeyä aylì'u lu mì tìpawm a tìkenongil tìpängkxoä akelku-tsawlslawnu pawlhu tok ngeyä sìfpe't mì a fkol plltxe tsnì fkoä ronsem sìlstan lu talun tsasìpängkxo a nga salmar?

I basically echo what Wm. has said above.

Some of the "ear stuff" that I've thought about before is already captured in the A and B submissions of the LEP.

lay back the ears (B) Comments: to protect them, as a sign of aggression – the Na'vi do this a lot in the movie

Other's I'd propose along the lines of his speaking tail are:

  "mad tail" «*sti kxetse»

SCENARIO: A couple of folks are watching a "private conversation" (perhaps intimates fighting verbally/arguing) out of the corner of their eyes. The onlookers cannot hear what's being said, but... One is vehemently trying to 'explain' (assume a guy). The other (assume a woman) has her arms folded and is glaring daggers at him. Her tail is flicking back and forth in a highly controlled pattern of an undulating S-curve. She is not saying anything, but it is clear to everyone involved that she is furious. Even the guy is watching her tail (out of the corners of his menari) as it appears to the left and right of her body. He's evaluating her tail as much as her face to figure out if he's making any progress, but trying not to let her know this, because it's considered rude). One of the onlookers comments: "Well, that's one mad tail. I think he's 'spending the night with the nantang'." She, of course, is using her tail to utterly subjugate him, because at another level of social complexity she is also aware of the corners of his eyes and those of the passive onlookers. Without saying a single word to anyone other than to him about "what happened" (ever), she can create a firestorm of gossip that will socially shame him into making much "better choices" about whom he strolls by the river with "next time."

  "calm tail" «*maweya kxetse» / «kxetse nìmawey»

Basically the opposite of "mad tail". Indication that one is completely relaxed based on the comportment of the tail.

   "tail balance" «*kxetsengeng (säpi)»

Tsakrr a Tsyek lamam mì na'rìng ameve po leru na prrnen nìwotx, slä set keng tsun po *kxetsengeng säpivi *nìyeyftue nìayoeng.

For the communal comment before a group meal I like:

   «*Fìhawngit Eywata tìyuyel»

Or just «Fìhawngit tìyuyel» or even «*Tìyuyel» for short.

It's the Japanese model of 頂きます (itadakimasu = "I/we shall receive (this meal)").

My only doubt about it is the euphony level on «hawng». Not the most adorable syllable in the world IMHO (ÌSAFO).

I love this kind of speculation, but guess that many might be uncomfortable with certain aspects of it, because at some point(s) it begins to assign values that may not be Cameronian.

So that's the long answer. The short answer is I've never explicitly discussed an idiomatic phrase/maxim with K. Pawl that was specific to Na'vi culture in the sense of your ikran relationship. I agree that it's nice.

What is the CONTEXT for it? When is it uttered? Under what circumstances? Perhaps I've missed something that you've written elsewhere about that. I'd like to know.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Now you've got me going!

I can kind of see why Frommer liked the Ikran expression that Taronyu used. My head is now spinning, trying to come up with some more similar expressions (almost slogans, really), but concerning ayfalulukan. (There have already been a couple about aynantang, one mentioned in this thread).

And speaking of tails, and what they communicate, I fondly remember my liger friend Hobbs doing something very interesting with his tail (which had a tassel on it, like lions and Na`vi). When we would just be sitting together, he would often be deep in thought (what do ligers think about, anyway?) The tip of the tail would be moving around kind of randomly. Every now and then, he would thump the ground with it. I have seen other cats do this, including domestics, but not to the extent Hobbs did it. So from this, I came up with the phrase 'thinking with the tail', which is what I told people he was doing when they observed this. So since we have seen the tail used to (perhaps involuntarily) express emotions, why not fperil fa kxtse? I could see this happening when everyone is seated around the fire in the evening.

[omängum fra'uti]

I have been occupied with more basic matters.  Idioms about food, say, are hardly in order when we don't yet have words for "hungry" or "thirsty."  

That said, I've had one phrase idea floating around in my head for a while.  One of the subtle things I enjoyed about the Na'vi were their ears and tails — they were quite expressive.  I've been working with some variation of this:

 mikyun kop plltxe The ear also speaks
 kxetse sì mikyun kop plltxe The tail and ear also speak

The idea is that someone's words might not match their attitude, expression, behavior, etc.  The second is more complete, but I like the shortness and paradoxical twist of the first alone.  These have not been floated before Frommer yet.

Why kop over nìteng?  This seems more like a nìteng moment to me (Unless you've learned something about the synonyms?)...  And IMO "mikyun nìteng plltxe" has a more poetic flow/sound to it.  (pronounced mik.yu.nì.tem.pll.txe or not)

[wm.annis]

Why kop over nìteng?  This seems more like a nìteng moment to me (Unless you've learned something about the synonyms?)...

No, it's just one of the issues I go back and forth on.

And IMO "mikyun nìteng plltxe" has a more poetic flow/sound to it.  (pronounced mik.yu.nì.tem.pll.txe)

Synaphaea?  Is there something you know that we don't?

[omängum fra'uti]

I don't even know what synaphea is!  I can guess from context (And when I looked it up, it didn't seem to apply here, but that aside) that you are referring to my teng->tem...

We actually have several examples of /n/ becoming /m/ in individual words...  txan+pay = txampay, lun + pe = pelun...  But perhaps I took it took far with /ng/ -> /m/ as we do have the sole example of "tsengpe".  Then again we also have zenke which is pronounced zengke (Source)...  However again that's not m->ng or ng->m, it's just n->ng.

[Swoka Swizaw]

Seriously, the fact that zenke isn't written "zengke" might be one of Frommer's few conceptual flubs, IMO. That, and "frrfen" (frrfen + <er>). OI!!

As for everything else, we have clear examples of [n] assimilating with [p] and [k] in the middle of words (c.w. words), I feel to create a purer sound. Anything alveolar is rather strong, to be sure. If one tries to anunciate [p] or [k] after [n], one finds that both "get caught." You have to soften it up. As for "tìng mikyun" and "tìng nari," these examples of sound change only pertain to nasals. As I render it myself, I can tell that [N] must, too, be softened to make room for [n] and [m]. Going from [N] to [m] is easier than [N] to [n], of course. But, I suppose to be fair, it's easier to make the rule universal. (Sorry for my rudimentary analysis; I'm not too privy to linguistic terminology.)

[NeotrekkerZ]

The difference in frrfen>frrfen vs. plltxe>poltxe is one of my favorite things about Na'vi.

mikyun kop plltxe is fantastic by the way.

[Plumps]

Since seeing and perception is so important (damn, we need a word for "important" ) for the Na'vi, and I specifically have the scene withe Neytiri kissing Jake's closed eyes in mind, I could imagine they'd have saying like:

Eywal menarit ngeyä pivom (fte kivame)
alternatively for pom it could be 'ampi

Maybe in hope that a stubborn person will reconsider their path/choice and act with reason...

What do you think?