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Dr. Paul Frommer's
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Author Topic: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter  (Read 11807 times)
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Keylstxatsmen
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« Reply #100 on: January 20, 2010, 07:48:50 pm »

Be careful assuming that because Japanese has a similar construct that it is exactly the same.  I'm not just saying that it's a separate verb because I think it looks like it.  I'm saying because there's precedent for "si" being it's own verb (Kempe si nga - what are you doing, from Neytiri to Tsu'tey) and there's precedent for verbs in compound words still being considered seperate from the word as a whole (From the hunt song, yomtìyìng - will feed, or something like that where a first position infix goes into the last "syllable" of yomtìng because that's the acting verb).

Also, every word paired with "si" is itself a word of a different part of speech.

I'm just calling the compound "noun+do" a verb, that doesn't mean I will inflect it in the wrong place.  I don't know, this all seems like arguing over semantics to me. Technically, you are right. Si or tìng is the verb in these constructions, but I would call "krrnekx" a verb just because it's easier that saying "krrnekx is a compound word that acts like the verb in a sentence but is actually made of out the word for 'take' and the noun for 'time'" if you have a fancy linguistic word for what these things are I will gladly use it. Smiley

Back to looking at this message, also thanks roger!

-Keyl
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Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!
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« Reply #101 on: January 20, 2010, 07:54:28 pm »

Per Frommer, the noun tìyawn derives from yawne "beloved".

Per Frommer where?  Because that adds a, what — adjective? noun? — to our list.
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« Reply #102 on: January 20, 2010, 07:58:00 pm »

I'm just calling the compound "noun+do" a verb, that doesn't mean I will inflect it in the wrong place.  I don't know, this all seems like arguing over semantics to me. Technically, you are right. Si or tìng is the verb in these constructions, but I would call "krrnekx" a verb just because it's easier that saying "krrnekx is a compound word that acts like the verb in a sentence but is actually made of out the word for 'take' and the noun for 'time'" if you have a fancy linguistic word for what these things are I will gladly use it. Smiley

Back to looking at this message, also thanks roger!

-Keyl
Don't look at me for fancy linguistic terms, IANAL.

Also don't take me as saying "This IS how it is!"  You could very well be right.  It doesn't seem right to me (tìngay si - is that tì (ngay si) or (tìngay) si?  One would be a noun the other a verb - I'd like to think that would be taken as a verb) but that could just be because I don't know the rules of Na'vi yet.

Going around declaring an assumption to be right can be dangerous, as can assuming that because two things appear similar on the surface that they are exactly the same.

(And re: roger, I echo wm in asking where that's from.)
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« Reply #103 on: January 20, 2010, 07:59:40 pm »

Per Frommer, the noun tìyawn derives from yawne "beloved".

Per Frommer where?  Because that adds a, what — adjective? noun? — to our list.

In an email exchange this morning making sure that there were no typos in the message before it was posted:

Quote
yawn is not actually the verb 'love.' Rather, yawne means 'beloved.' (For the noun, the e has dropped. Happens a lot.)

I would assume then that yawne is an adjective, ayawne, yawnea.

He also confirmed that like vowels contract, so that the dual/trial of 'eveng 'child', where the glottal stop is lenited, would be meveng, pxeveng. I suppose we can therefore say that the genitive in all pronouns is -eyä, and that after oe the two e's coalesce.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 08:03:38 pm by roger » Logged
suomichris
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« Reply #104 on: January 20, 2010, 08:00:31 pm »

Quote
Whoop, sorry, not future... "He has heard," the hearing is over and done with, thus perfective.
We can have perfectives in the future, if the action is complete in the future. Tense is irrelevant for aspect. (Well, theoretically. As just noted above, they're inseparable in English.)
Right, you can have future perfectives, but this is not what is in the letter.
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« Reply #105 on: January 20, 2010, 08:15:43 pm »

Not helping at all, but when is this going to hit the dictionary on-site?
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Za'u oene, aynga a ngeyn sì levrrìn 'efu, ulte oel tasyìng tìtsurokxit ngaru. - Matt. 11:28

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« Reply #106 on: January 20, 2010, 08:17:27 pm »

Not helping at all, but when is this going to hit the dictionary on-site?

It's already hit mine. Check the signature.
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« Reply #107 on: January 20, 2010, 08:21:59 pm »

Irayo ma tsmukan. Will check, but the format I'm used to (AKA: Printed out) is the one off the on-site dictionary.
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~Reyona

Ftue sìltsan lu krrpe plltxe nìNa'vi.

Za'u oene, aynga a ngeyn sì levrrìn 'efu, ulte oel tasyìng tìtsurokxit ngaru. - Matt. 11:28

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« Reply #108 on: January 20, 2010, 09:41:14 pm »

Wow this is great!! Txana irayo!
I have one question though.

Shouldn't yawn be a verb? In his letter he used tìyawnit, tì-yawn-it. We know since previously that tì- makes a verb into a noun. So yawn should be a verb then? Yawn = To love. Tíyawn = A love.

tìyawn would = "love" an abstract noun, no article needed in English.

-Keyl

Right, but that still begs the question: Shouldn't "yawn" alone, without the abstract noun deriving affix tì-, be the VERB love?  As in: Rey|Live(verb) and Tìrey|Life(abstract noun).

Another question: Did Frommer have the list of new vocab set aside or was that Seabass' doing, extracting the words from the paragraph?

I extracted the new vocabulary and asked him many questions about it.

First and foremost, YAWN is NOT A VERB that can be conjugated with infixes. I am hopeful that we might find out exactly HOW to say "I love you" soon. A cry for help has gone out. Fìkrr fì'lìfyari leNa'vi nì'it, nìmun, frapo zene pivey. (This time, again, everyone must wait for this bit of Na'vi.)
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« Reply #109 on: January 20, 2010, 09:50:36 pm »

"Spivaw" - Typo?  Should be "Spivaw" ?

  - Eri


Ma Eri,

This was a very good catch. Sìltsan leiu nìtxan! Nga tsun nìlaw eltu sivi nìlstan. The underline was too long. I've corrected it. The code/HTML for all that coloration and underlining is a nightmare. Praise be to Seabass for marking it up originally from a word processing master this morning.
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« Reply #110 on: January 20, 2010, 09:51:57 pm »

nìawnomum "as we know"

I think this is actually wrong, but I'm a skxawng, so I don't know. Based on what I know, I see it as devided as

awnomum "as we know"

because I know that omum is to know (ironically). So adding the nì would make it the adverb and that leaves awn. Any ideas on my theory?

------

Dang! Ninjaed twice!
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~Reyona

Ftue sìltsan lu krrpe plltxe nìNa'vi.

Za'u oene, aynga a ngeyn sì levrrìn 'efu, ulte oel tasyìng tìtsurokxit ngaru. - Matt. 11:28

wm.annis
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« Reply #111 on: January 20, 2010, 09:55:31 pm »

Another typo, in the sentence Sìlpey oe, layu oeru ye'rìn sìltsan a fmawn a tsun oe ayngaru tivìng.  In the text with the flash of the sound+text, the attributive particle is attached to sìltsan, as expected for an attributive adjective.  Here it's written separately for some reason.
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« Reply #112 on: January 20, 2010, 09:56:26 pm »

Sorry if this is a bad time to ask but

'eylan friend (plurals: meylan(2), pxeylan(3), ayeylan(4+), eylan(lenited))

I'm not entirely sure where we got px(e) from (can't see it in the letter) but anyway Smiley, does this mean that me- and px(e)- are confirmed to trigger lenition?

Don't forget ay- Smiley

Srane

pa'li direhorse (mefa'li (2 direhorses), pxefa'li (3 direhorses), fa'li (4+ direhorses))

This insight comes from Karyu Pawl. The trial forms of the pronouns also code off of pxe-.
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« Reply #113 on: January 20, 2010, 09:57:11 pm »

nìawnomum "as we know"

I think this is actually wrong, but I'm a skxawng, so I don't know. Based on what I know, I see it as devided as

awnomum "as we know"

because I know that omum is to know (ironically). So adding the nì would make it the adverb and that leaves awn. Any ideas on my theory?

------

Dang! Ninjaed twice!
Well the roots here are...

Nì + awnga + omum
(Awnga is a shortened form of Ayoeng)

Why that becomes specifically "awn" I couldn't say.
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« Reply #114 on: January 20, 2010, 09:57:39 pm »

nìawnomum "as we know"

I think this is actually wrong,

Why would this be wrong?  It looks to me like a phrase that has been compressed into an idiomatic adverb.
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« Reply #115 on: January 20, 2010, 10:01:51 pm »

Sorry, I meant in pertaining to a typo. I think instead of awnomum it actually should be awnomum due to the reasons I just explained.
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Za'u oene, aynga a ngeyn sì levrrìn 'efu, ulte oel tasyìng tìtsurokxit ngaru. - Matt. 11:28

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« Reply #116 on: January 20, 2010, 10:05:55 pm »

This is so great!  I can't wait to pour through it!

Too bad I have to go to stupid class.... grumbles about students


[EnglishGrammarNaziMode]
Hmm, methinks English is not the class you teach Wink

The word here, "pour", should be "pore."
[/EnglishGrammarNaziMode]

Sorry it has been bugging me since I read it!

Also:

KE TSUN lì'u kemä livu tìkenongfa "y-ol-awn" Kehe Kehe! Fì'u lu koren a Karyu Pawl zola'u.

Then why the flying heck did he use tì- if "yawm" is ALREADY a noun?  I understand that you say Frommer himself asserted that "yawm" can only be a noun, but what explanation is there for tìyawm then? Huh

This is a very good insight/question. There were a couple of cases in which (I and maybe others (who were doing a LOT of rushing around this morning)) mistyped tìyawn. I think the initial tì- (which is ABSOLUTELY required) was left off in more than one place. My sincere apologies for any confusion or conflict that this might have caused. I am hopeful that we will have more context and instruction around the concepts of "love" in Na'vi soon, but like everyone on so many fronts. Oe perey...

PS: Whatever you do with tìyawn, do not try to drop the tì- and conjugate it with infixes. It is NOT a regular verb like za'u, kä, tìng, etc.
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« Reply #117 on: January 20, 2010, 10:14:25 pm »

"Spivaw" - Typo?  Should be "Spivaw" ?

This was a very good catch.


Happy to help!


The code/HTML for all that coloration and underlining is a nightmare.


Yes, I agree. Smiley

Thanks for the confirmation; fixed on the wiki.

  - Eri
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« Reply #118 on: January 20, 2010, 10:39:04 pm »

Also, I fixed nìftxavang on the wiki, as you did in the post.

  - Eri
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« Reply #119 on: January 20, 2010, 10:45:46 pm »

Another typo, in the sentence Sìlpey oe, layu oeru ye'rìn sìltsan a fmawn a tsun oe ayngaru tivìng.  In the text with the flash of the sound+text, the attributive particle is attached to sìltsan, as expected for an attributive adjective.  Here it's written separately for some reason.

How do we know which is correctly copied from Frommer's original authoritative email/telegram/palimpsest, and which is the typo?  I assume that some as-yet-unclearly-specified combination of Seabass, Prrton, roger, and James Cameron worked together on this multi-media extravaganza; perhaps one of them can attest to the provenance and relative accuracy of the Flash and the Forum Post.

  - Eri
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