Na'vi Language Workshop: The Poll of Outstanding Questions

Started by Lance R. Casey, September 16, 2010, 03:39:01 PM

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Which of these topics are most important to you?

Dates in Na'vi
26 (41.3%)
Transitivity with verbs in ‹eyk›
15 (23.8%)
Transitivty and infix positions for all known verbs
21 (33.3%)
Rules of "ke"
13 (20.6%)
Negation with adverbs
3 (4.8%)
Rules of "txo"
15 (23.8%)
Word order with "slu"
8 (12.7%)
"Fì'u", "fìkem" and actions
7 (11.1%)
Rules of "-pe+"
10 (15.9%)
More comparative constructs
11 (17.5%)
Rules of "sä-"
11 (17.5%)
More on "si"-constructions
13 (20.6%)
Phonological issues
16 (25.4%)
Does "pum" have plural forms?
3 (4.8%)
Clarification on participles
6 (9.5%)
Rules of "tsnì"
10 (15.9%)
Combinations of pre-first position infixes
3 (4.8%)
Combinations of tense infixes
5 (7.9%)
Are "kä-" and "za-" productive prefixes?
5 (7.9%)
Which verbs can or must use the modal syntax?
9 (14.3%)
Tense with modal verbs
7 (11.1%)
Special plural cases
6 (9.5%)
Synonyms
16 (25.4%)
What kind of "good" is "sìltsan"?
14 (22.2%)
Inherent number of "tsopì"
2 (3.2%)
Rules of "nang"
11 (17.5%)
Use of "tätxaw"
0 (0%)
"Txan" and "pxay" with temporal words
4 (6.3%)
What kind of "think" does "fpìl" refer to?
12 (19%)
Meanings of "nì'aw"
6 (9.5%)
Productivity of reduplication
4 (6.3%)
Attribution of adpositional phrases
1 (1.6%)
Use and formation of adjectives
9 (14.3%)
Completion of answer-word chart
6 (9.5%)
Does Na'vi have any ideophones?
6 (9.5%)
"X out of Y"
6 (9.5%)
Application of gender suffixes
9 (14.3%)
One-time occurrences
4 (6.3%)
How do you say "[noun] is [prep] [location]"?
13 (20.6%)
Other functions of the genitive
7 (11.1%)
"Self" and "own"
21 (33.3%)
Number system extensions
12 (19%)
Dates in Na'vi
18 (28.6%)
Asking/giving permission
17 (27%)
Asking/giving directions
11 (17.5%)
Cardinal directions
13 (20.6%)

Total Members Voted: 63

Voting closed: September 19, 2010, 03:39:01 PM

Lance R. Casey

This poll is intended to gauge the opinions of the LearnNa'vi.org community regarding which questions about the language are the most important right now. The topics herein have been retrieved from Combining our Efforts II, sorted, and in some cases merged, and this is the result.

ALL members get 7 votes to cast, and as the voting progresses the topics that people feel should be prioritized will begin to float to the top. The end result will be collected into a document to be sent to Karyu Pawl in preparation for the Na'vi Language Workshop, with some more context to further define the questions.

The poll options are given in the form of terse titles, which are elaborated upon below. If there is something you don't understand, or feel should be clarified further, please do not hesitate to post your question here before casting your votes.

Also, please take note that the poll will run for exactly three days, and whatever the standings are at the end of those three days will constitute the final say of the community – no additions after the fact will be possible. Therefore, use your votes wisely, and don't delay too long in doing so.



A full kinship system
Frommer thinks that we need this and has already been given context and suggestions, so its inclusion here is meant to probe what importance the community ascribes to it.

Transitivity with verbs in ‹eyk›
The causative infix changes the transitivity of verbs; intransitive ones are made transitive, and transitive ones are made ditransitive. Can it be used freely, and are the resulting constructions predictable?
How does it apply to si-verbs? How are the cases handled then? (Si-verbs are always intransitive, but what would be the direct object with a transitive verb is here the indirect object instead, which means that there might already be a dative in play.)
Is the resulting verb always transitive, and must the subject then always be in the ergative, or can the verb be understood in a general sense?
What happens when the base verb is a linking verb (lu, slu, 'efu)?

Transitivity and infix positions for all known verbs
Before being explicitly told so, we did not know that, for example, sngä'i was intransitive and that "begin something" would be sngeykä'i. There are more verbs like this that need clarification, and also some ambiguous ones such as tsunslu and kenong where it is not obvious where the infixes should go.

Rules of ke
Must ke always come immediately before the verb? How about si-verbs?
Do the same rules apply when ke is embedded, e.g. zenke?
Is there an *ake form to complement kea?

Negation with adverbs
Inside or outside (ke nìwin or *nìkwin)?
Ke or kea?

Rules of txo
When is the subjunctive required? Canon examples are contradictory.
Are there specific rules for the protasis (the condition) and the apodosis (the conclusion)?

Word order with slu
A slu B – does A become B or B become A? Is there a rule to determine which becomes which?

Fì'u, fìkem and actions
When a subordinate clause is comprised of an action, can we use fwa et al or must we use fìkem a? (E.g. "To write this word in Na'vi is difficult.")

Rules of -pe+
Can you apply the interrogative affix -pe+ to any noun to form a "which" question?
How do you combine -pe+ with number prefixes? Do they meld, like fay+ and tsay+?

More comparative constructs
What happens when there is nothing for to to be relevant to? (E.g. "there is no faster ikran")
Can the superlative marker frato be applied to other parts of speech than adjectives? How?
"The more A, the more B"?
"A is as Q as B"?

Rules of sä-
How and when do you (Paul Frommer) create nouns with this prefix?

More on si-constructions
From which word classes can si-verbs be built?
How are participles formed? (E.g. "a clarified question" from law si or "a careful hunter" from nari si)
Can there be double datives? What would normally be the direct object is shifted to the indirect object with si-verbs (e.g. srung si oer help me), so what do you say when you need another indirect object?
Can the base noun take modifiers? (E.g. would kem awin si be "do a quick action"?)

Phonological issues
Are final stops unreleased also in situations like pot oel tse'a?
When do unstable vowel sequences decay? (E.g. äa, )
Are double vowels always prevented? Is seiyi generalizable?
What happens when adpositions are added to words that end in the same vowel or consonant that the adposition begins with? Oe + eo = ?
Similarly, what about indefinite -o added to words like fya'o?
Is sengi from s‹äng›i? If so, what is the cause of the sound change?

Does pum have plural forms?
If so, when are they used? We know from the listening excercise at Na'viteri that pum by itself can refer back to a plural noun.

Clarification on participles
Can an active participle take a direct object?
Can you create a gerund from ‹awn› like you can with tì- + ‹us›? If so, what would it mean?
Can you use a passive participle with an intransitive verb? If so, what would it mean?
What other infixes, if any, can the participle infixes be used with?

Rules of tsnì
We have sìlpey tsnì and ätxäle si tsnì. What is the general rule?

Combinations of pre-first position infixes
In a blog post at Na'viteri, Frommer said that these infixes can indeed occur together, and gave the example z‹äp›‹eyk›o. What is the full story?

Combinations of tense infixes
Are we correctly hearing tspìmìyang in the movie for I was about to kill him? If so, is this indicative of how different tenses can be combined, i.e. with future tense following past tense?

Are kä- and za- productive prefixes?
For example, is there a *kämunge (bring from a place) to complement zamunge (bring to a place) and munge (take, bring)? Can they be attached wherever such a distinction would make sense?

Which verbs can or must use the modal syntax?
Apart from the actual modal verbs (new, zene etc.), we know that sentences with fmi and sngä'i are constructed in the same way: oe zene kivä I must go, oe fmayi kivä I will try to go. Which other verbs use the same syntax?

Tense with modal verbs
In a modal sentence (e.g. oe new tsive'a Uniltìrantokxit I want to see Avatar), which verb is inflected for tense? That is, if the preceding statement were referring to the past, would it be namew or tsimve'a?

Special plural cases
Is there a plural "who?" (*fesu) when you know there are multiple persons involved?
Is the plural of fì'u ayfì'u or fayu? Are there differences of meaning to these?
How do you combine fra- with demonstrative prefixes? That is, how do you say, "all these rules"?

Synonyms
Several words in the lexicon have similar or identical translations. Are they true synonyms, or are there nuances?
Na/pxel, hawnu/tìhawnu si, nìn/tìng nari, way/tìrol?

What kind of "good" is sìltsan?
Morally/not evil, favorable/advantageous, ??

Inherent number of tsopì
Does tsopì refer to a pair of lungs (or whatever number the Na'vi have), or only to one part?

Rules of nang
When and how can you use nang?

Use of tätxaw
This word means "return" in the sense of going back to something. How do you specify that something: using cases or adpositions?
What would be the meaning of the causative teykätxaw? Could it be used for "give back an object to someone"?

Txan and pxay with temporal words
Do you choose which to use based on whether the word in question is countable? In English we have "much time" (uncountable) but "many years" (countable). Do you say pxaya zìsìt or txana zìsìt?

What kind of "think" does fpìl refer to?
See here.

Meanings of nì'aw
Can it mean "merely" as well as "only, exclusively"?

Productivity of reduplication
We have letrrtrr (ordinary) and krro krro (at times). Can you create other repetitive concepts in the same way?

Attribution of adpositional phrases
Fìpo lu vrrtep a mì sokx atsleng It's a demon in a false body – is the a always required?

Use and formation of adjectives
Can we use more than two attributive adjectives with one noun (eana txìm atsawl)? How?
Can you use noun suffixes or enclitic adpositions together with the deriving prefix le-?
When an adjective is created by adding both ke and le- (e.g. keltsun), is the attributive marker optional as it is with le- on its own? That is, tute akelfpomtokx or tute kelfpomtokx?

Completion of answer-word chart
Filling in the blanks here.

Does Na'vi have any ideophones?
WP article

"X out of Y"
How do you say, "Seven hunters went into the forest, but only three of them returned"?

Application of gender suffixes
Are *foan, *ngae etc. possible pronoun forms?
Can -an and -e be freely attached to any word where they would make sense, or is there a fixed set of allowed terms?

One-time occurrences
Are there words used in only one set phrase, and/or a phrase that is only used in one very specific context?

How do you say "[noun] is [prep] [location]"?
Since tok is transitive it does not seem to work here, and if lu cannot function as "be in a place", then what other options are there?

Other functions of the genitive
Which are there, other than a simple possessive? Utral Aymokriyä Tree of Voices, for example.

"Self" and "own"
Are there words corresponding to "myself", "herself" etc.?
Is there a way to distinguish between "he ate his (own) food" and "he ate his (someone else's) food"?

Number system extensions
Decimal numbers (3.14 and suchlike)?
Very large numbers? Do they exist?
Negative numbers?
Simple fractions and a word for "half"?

Dates in Na'vi
How do you say them?
Do the Na'vi have months, and if so, what are they called and how are they used?

Asking/giving permission
Do we use tsun or something else?

Asking/giving directions
How do you say, "go to the right"?

Cardinal directions
Do the Na'vi think in terms of a compass rose, or do they have a different conception of direction? Absolute or relative?

// Lance R. Casey

Lisa


Eh, this is difficult....all of these are really good questions!    :)
Oeru syaw "Tirea Ikran" kop slä frakrrmi layu oe "Grammar Skxawng"   :)

'Oma Tirea

Quote from: Tirea Ikran on September 16, 2010, 04:12:40 PM

Eh, this is difficult....all of these are really good questions!    :)

Sran...  oe kivin krr nì'ul....
[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

'Oma Tirea

As I have said, tough, tough decision (and in fact, if I could choose a few more, I would), yet here are my final 7 votes, with the reasons on why I chose them:

Rules of "-pe+"

Personally, I was surprised to see "-pe+" have a rated productivity of 4, yet only seeing a few custom words made using that prefix/suffix.  I have developed a curiosity for more information regarding this prefix/suffix.

Combinations of pre-first position infixes

I had my own, short little thread about something like this, and like many others, I just want to know.

Synonyms

Like many others, I am curoius and just want some clarification.

Rules of "nang"

...and also the location of "pak" in a sentence, and maybe even "srak(e)" and "kefyak."

Productivity of reduplication

Like many others, I am curoius and just want some clarification.

Number system extensions

Only interested in fractions (e.g. how would a Na'vi say "one-half").  I wouldn't imagine large Na'vi numbers, decimals, or negative numbers would be very practical in the world of Pandora.

Cardinal directions

Like many others, I am curoius and just want to know.


'Ivong Na'vi!

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Kì'eyawn

They're all interesting questions; i'll be excited to see what the lì'fyaolo' decides =)
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

burritoninja007

They're definitely all great questions! 

An interesting followup would be how we would answer the second place set of 7 ourselves and see what comes up.  If nothing else, it would be an interesting cross-sectional snapshot of the community's creative tendencies during these formative developmental stages.  =D

Kì'eyawn

I'm surprised how many people want the kinship system.  I mean, it's an important question, but a) not having it hasn't interfered with my ability to use Na'vi thus far and b) i'm not sure Frommer can give us an answer without James Cameron, anyway.  Slä masyllteie oe hu mokri Na'viyä.
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Prrton

Quote from: Kì'eyawn on September 16, 2010, 07:56:59 PM
I'm surprised how many people want the kinship system.  I mean, it's an important question, but a) not having it hasn't interfered with my ability to use Na'vi thus far and b) i'm not sure Frommer can give us an answer without James Cameron, anyway. Slä masyllteie oe hu mokri Na'viyä.

You know, this is also a question that I frequently want to ask. Please understand that this is meant 100% as a QUESTION, because I don't know. I wonder if hu can work with things that are not other sentient beings?

It seems to me that this MIGHT be an option for this sentence:

  Slä masyllteie oe ìlä mokri Na'viyä.

I have heard hu described as referring to "accompaniment" and that's generally how I think of it.

Can a PERSON *accompany* a voice that is not his or her own?

This could probably be answered by a piece of canon if there is one that uses hu to tie a person to a non-person/abstract concept belonging to another.


Kì'eyawn

Quote from: Prrton on September 16, 2010, 10:47:29 PM
Quote from: Kì'eyawn on September 16, 2010, 07:56:59 PM
I'm surprised how many people want the kinship system.  I mean, it's an important question, but a) not having it hasn't interfered with my ability to use Na'vi thus far and b) i'm not sure Frommer can give us an answer without James Cameron, anyway. Slä masyllteie oe hu mokri Na'viyä.

You know, this is also a question that I frequently want to ask. Please understand that this is meant 100% as a QUESTION, because I don't know. I wonder if hu can work with things that are not other sentient beings?

It seems to me that this MIGHT be an option for this sentence:

  Slä masyllteie oe ìlä mokri Na'viyä.

I have heard hu described as referring to "accompaniment" and that's generally how I think of it.

Can a PERSON *accompany* a voice that is not his or her own?

This could probably be answered by a piece of canon if there is one that uses hu to tie a person to a non-person/abstract concept belonging to another.

Ngeyä tìpawm oeyä eltur tìtxen si, ma PrrtonTsaw lu säfpìl atxantsan, leiu sìlronsem nìtxanFparmìl oel futa fìlì'fyavi alu "mllte hu X" ke tsun fkol leykivatem, slä ke omum oel.
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Plumps

Again a hugh Thanks to Lance for putting this together!!!
I can't imagine how much work that must have been.

Gave my vote ... and the signature spreads the word :)


Ma Prrton, ma Kì'eyawn,
There was also the possibility to use the dative with mllte ... but you are right, a canon example would be great.

Ngawng

KRÄPX cast my 7 votes before I looked up what an ideophone was.....ffffuuu

...hrh

29.f.australia

Lance R. Casey

#11
Quote from: Kì'eyawn on September 16, 2010, 07:56:59 PM
b) i'm not sure Frommer can give us an answer without James Cameron, anyway..
He has stated as much himself. As mentioned above, it's only part of the poll to see just how much we want it to happen.

Quote from: Prrton on September 16, 2010, 10:47:29 PM
You know, this is also a question that I frequently want to ask. Please understand that this is meant 100% as a QUESTION, because I don't know. I wonder if hu can work with things that are not other sentient beings?

It seems to me that this MIGHT be an option for this sentence:

   Slä masyllteie oe ìlä mokri Na'viyä.

I have heard hu described as referring to "accompaniment" and that's generally how I think of it.

Can a PERSON *accompany* a voice that is not his or her own?

This could probably be answered by a piece of canon if there is one that uses hu to tie a person to a non-person/abstract concept belonging to another.
From the Canon Wiki (Feb 18):

Quote from: Frommer
2. mesyalhu a ikran

I like that the best. Seems quite natural.

// Lance R. Casey

Prrton

Quote from: Lance R. Casey on September 17, 2010, 04:43:02 AM

From the Canon Wiki (Feb 18):

Quote from: Frommer
2. mesyalhu a ikran

I like that the best. Seems quite natural.
Almost a definitive answer, but not quite (tì'efumì oeyä). The wings of the animal belong to it. Inalienable possession comes into play. The wings are attached to the creature. They always *accompany* it in that sense.

Thanks very very much for finding this, though. It's definitely pointing in a specific direction.


`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

What exactly is a 'kinship system'?

This was a difficult thing to vote on. These are my choices:

Transitivity and infix positions for all known verbs
Fì'u, fìkem and actions
More on si-constructions
Clarification on participles
Which verbs can or must use the modal syntax?
Attribution of adpositional phrases
Use and formation of adjectives

If I could pick three more, they would be:

Rules of sä-
How do you say "[noun] is [prep] [location]"?
Number system extensions

BTW, Prrton, I like your new avatar!

And irayo to Lance and everyone else for putting in the work to get these questions all answered.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Prrton

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on September 17, 2010, 03:03:39 PM

What exactly is a 'kinship system'?

BTW, Prrton, I like your new avatar!

And irayo to Lance and everyone else for putting in the work to get these questions all answered.


A kinship system is the way people think and talk about relatives. For example, we don't have words for "aunt" and "uncle" in Na'vi yet (and maybe they won't exist). Some systems are very complicated like the Chinese one. Others are simpler.

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinship_and_descent

Thank you for the compliment. This is kind of an "old" avatar, but I've recycled it for here. It is handy to have one. Kenya is very regal in yours too.

I second your thanking Lance for all of his hard work on this. He's put it together fantastically well, especially considering all the volume and complexity.

Irayo nìmun!!


Lance R. Casey

Less than a day remaining, with 55 votes (times seven) and counting. Don't miss out on this opportunity to contribute to the development of our beloved language!

// Lance R. Casey

Nyx

This really was a hard decision, so many important points! But I guess that sooner or later we'll also get answers to those that aren't picked now.

Lance R. Casey

Quote from: Nyx on September 18, 2010, 08:46:41 PM
But I guess that sooner or later we'll also get answers to those that aren't picked now.

A clarification on that: the idea is to include every topic (barring a 0% result, I suppose) in the final priority-ranked document, with emphasis on the top tier, but not bothering with ordering in the bottom tier.

// Lance R. Casey

Lance R. Casey

#18
Voting is now closed.

Attached below you will find the resulting document in a ridiculously ambitious format. ;D

// Lance R. Casey

Plumps

66 votes ... can that be taken as representative? :( Is that the number of 'official' speakers?

A huge thanks for putting this all together, ma Lance – great work!