A human return to Pandora

[kintìomum]

This originally started as a "quick" digression on why it would be difficult for humans to resettle on Pandora in this thread.
Now it seemed to be something worth more input and although it is arguable if it belongs in this section I'll post it here anyway since it does concern Customs and Culture.
Human Customs and Culture to be precise.
Now, the original post:

Returning humans will have a hell of a time.
First of all: No Hell's Gate complex.
As impressive as it seems, it's only standing because humans in it are constantly battling the regrowing flora around with flamers and toxins.
Now that the humans are gone and almost a year before the next ship arrives (5y 9m 22d per trip x2 = 11y 7m 14d for one whole trip without stop for refueling/loading, divided by 10 ISVs built so far = roughly 1.2 years) there won't be too much left. Sure it can be rebuilt but they'll have to open a landing space in the first place, then set up new generators and air filtering systems and so on...

The heavy (war)machines were built on Pandora, in Hell's Gates robotic factory (it's cheaper to transport blueprints than actual equipment). The only thing a Valkyrie can carry in a number that's making any difference is a set of AMP suits with some infantry.
I can't imagine that Jake will leave the complex operational and most of the Avatars that were allowed to stay were scientists, the guys who should at least have some knowledge on how to sabotage equipment...

Second point:
Even if humans are able to reconquer Hell's Gate or set up another base somewhere else they still have the problem that the Na'vi learned how to fight the gunships, their most effective weapon. And you don't need explosives to ruin a turbine or rotor. A shovel of gravel or a rock will have the same result.

Third point:
And this being the most important one: The distance.
It takes almost six YEARS for a ship to arrive that's been refitted/equipped to set up a base on a hostile world. That's pretty much the same as colonization of the northern americans. Now, sending only one ship is -due to the limited cargo space- pretty useless. Either your troops need all supplies for a one-year tour or they have to carry a basic factory and workers/engineers to operate it (even a robo-factory needs someone to set it up and "push the start button"). Both further limits the space avaiable for actual fighting staff.
So, the only solution is to increase the cargo space.
With 5 ships heading home (the Venture Star being the last in the line), 1 at anchor being refitted/refueled and 4 heading towards Pandora you got another problem: Call the outbound ships back? Let them go and try their luck?
Now, the ships coming back will have to be refitted. Can you afford to leave them at anchor to mass up enough forces to set up a new base?
Again: These ships are EXPENSIVE! And a ship that's not traveling to get it's cargo hold filled with Unobtanium is like pouring dimes into Grand Canyon: nice sight but no profit.
Even if you decide -and convince the 263 million RDA-shareholders its a great idea- to leave your ships waiting until you can send more at once: Your troops will not only be far away from home with long supply lines. 6 years travel time equals no supply lines in actual combat.
Oh, and don't start with nuking the planet and mining on the scrapheap: the RDA is by international decree not allowed to have any mass effect weapons above orbit (pretty interesting, they can nuke competition on Earth?).

The sole reason the RDA was at Pandora is Unobtanium. As long as the natives were peaceful or easily supressed everything was fine. But when you have to wage war to get your mining done the whole thing gets less profitable...
In the end it depends on how desperate the RDA is for Unobtanium. Desperate enough to start an interstellar war? Or will they settle for mining other "nearby" star systems?

[Nawm Karyu]

The question that can be raised is : do the other ships know of the situation on Pandora? And if they do not, what kind of artillery would the ISVs pack? If the ISVs have no way to contact the Venture Star, then I doubt they'll just turn back when they arrive there.

Secondly, why would humans want to immediately occupy Hell's Gate again? I am assuming there are plenty of plain areas on Pandora that are relatively free of Na'vi and some of the jungle creatures. So, humans could possibly occupy Pandora again, and rebuild until the are powerful enough to strike back.

[ShadowedSin]

When humans want something they use what ever means to get it.

Several of the Roleplays I've seen spring up have either a new base location or a forced occupation of Hellsgate.

[kintìomum]

The big problem for humans is the distance. Some math on that:

They got a fleet of 10 ISVs and regarding a steady flow of Unobtanium they'll most likely all be on the way.
We know that the ISV Venture Star was in orbit above Pandora for three months before she was sent home early.
With this in mind we can calculate a better estimate of the time needed until the next ship reaches Pandora.
One trip is 5 years, 9 months and 22 days (2121 days).
Refitting and reloading seem to take about 3-4 months in Pandoras orbit (lets say 100 days).
The next trip is another 5 years, 9 months and 22 days (2121 days).
Followed by another period of reloading and such. But this one is most likely shorter since we're in orbit above Earth, were the whole construction yards and stuff for the ISVs are - to put it simple: much better facilities. So, 28 days might do the trick.
All in all we have a sum of 4370 days (11.97 years) until one ship is ready to take the next tour.
But there are 10 ISVs and assuming that they all travel with the same speed is a safe bet.
The reason for this is rather simple: If the ships travel with different speeds they'll arrive at different times and create some serious waiting time. Serious? Yes, waiting ships don't earn money!
So, the waiting time reduces to 437 days, which is 1.19 years (ha, good bet in the original post!).

Continuing my proof that interstellar warfare is useless until you're travelling faster than light. Anyone still reading?
With a fleet of ten ISVs and the Venture Star homebound early it's rather safe to say that one ISV is currently in orbit above Earth and unloading a nice lot of Unobtanium.
Four are heading towards Pandora and will arrive in the next year (437-90 days, roughly 0.95 years), ~2.14 years from the end of the movie, 3.33 years and 4.52 years.
That's a hell of a lot of time to spent when the comfortable base you're aiming for has been reduced to a scrapyard...

One more thing: Humans as a race won't start an invasion of Pandora.
The only organisation that counts in battles is the RDA.
Why? Take your copy of the ASG at page 147 or read here:
The RDA is the largest (and thus financially strongest) corporation for Earth and beyond.
It got a terrible lot of shareholders that all invest their money in it and await profit. You don't go into stocks just for the fun of it, you want hard cash returned!
Now, the RDA has the sole right of making profit from ANY pandoran product. And not even that, they also have the right to exploit every single thing, idea or invention that is made beyond Earth's orbit! That's what you call succesfull monopolism.
The only drawback they had to take for this was that they aren't allowed to use wepaons of mass destruction and may not create killer satellites (or any other strong military power in space). Since war is expensive not that bad a deal...

I think that a new base will be the best bet. But it takes an awful lot of time until a ISV with the necessary equipment arrives.
There is superluminal communication (although at a terrible slow rate of 3 bit/hour) so the RDA will quite soon know that there are serious problems on Pandora. But from that moment on they still need the mentioned 5.8 years to send the next ISV with matching supplies for setting up a spearhead.

[Eywal ngaru teing oeti]

The amount time that would've past during and after the conflict, would give RDA enough time to come up with a faster way to travel that distance. Also give them enough time to come up with some new weapons that we might see in the 2nd movie.

[Nawm Karyu]

Well, I can use my own knowledge of a similar scenario which appears in Allen Steel's Coyote saga. Interstellar warfare is indeed difficult when face with the light barrier. However, we can assume that all the ships sent, will not be brought back immediately. This can have two separate results: 1) humans start to amass more than ever before since there is no more rotation back to Earth; 2) As it was mentioned the RDA will be able to send bigger forces in 5-6 years. The Na'vi don't have a monopoly on their planet, nor do they know everything that is happening on it (at least considering our present understanding of Eywa).

All these factors can and will affect a successful recolonization of Pandora by humans. When Jake says that humans will rain down upon Pandora like no other storm, he wasn't kidding. The only hope the planet, the Na'vi and Eywa have is that other colonists turn their backs on the RDA and that coups start occurring from the inside.

[kintìomum]

The ISVs are the pinnacle of human technology so far and producing the Venture Star (as far as I remember the ninth out of ten ISVs) was still seen as a colossal risk for the RDA.
The problem with sub-light-travel is that you need more energy the faster you are. When you are faster the vehicle gains "imaginary" mass and this has to be pushed with more force. I could try and dig out the physics behind it but for now I won't.
The faster you want to go, the faster your exhaust velocity has to be since someone called Newton stated "Action equals Reaction" and there's the catch. Humans (or at least the RDA) don't know a practicable way of reaching higher exhaust velocities than these of the currently employed matter/antimatter drives with added hydrogen injection.

New weapons might be, the only drawback is that they would have to carry all equipment and are limited to the size of their army due to the treaty allowing the RDA the sole exploitation of anything beyond orbit. I guess as soon as they are a threat to any nation or other corp on Earth they get a "stop that or face competition beyond orbit!".

But the RDA is not uncontested on Earth. There are activists aiming to bring the corp down (hence the Activist Survival Guide). With some luck they will be succesfull enough to stop a serious invasion.
At the time being (with the end of the movie) it would be the safest bet that the outbound ISVs are called back to Earth. We're not talking about Star Destroyers here so they won't have the spare room to carry a new base around. That would be dead weight in most of the cases and thus it would be a financial loss.
So, reequipping them, inventing some better suited (war)machinery, training the troops will take some time, let's say 4-5 years, so Pandora will be safe for 10 years at all.
That is if the leaderboard of the RDA follows a rather "sane" course of action and doesn't decide to throw troups onto the planet in handy portions.

Massing up more ISVs will have one other big benefit: more shuttles!
A Valkyrie can carry 60 troops and 25 AMP suits and then has to return to orbit to refill the cargo hold.
One ISV equals two shuttles, therefore therre would be 120 grunts and 50 suits on the ground to establish and hold a landing zone.
More shuttles means more troops means more chance on not being overrun.

[Nawm Karyu]

Well if what are we one about here then? Do we try and prove that there is absolutely no chance that the RDA will grab a foothold on Pandora again? There are many plot holes left that can be exploited.

First of all, if the FTL messages work trough a tunneling system this means there is a potential for wormhole development somewhere in the future. This would indeed take more than 10 years, but the main thing is that it can happen and then Pandora would truly be in trouble.

Now back to the original premise, according to which humans don't really have a shot at retaking Pandora with current tech. I am trying to claim that this is not necessarily true. Avoiding all concepts of new ships and improved cargo capacity or velocity, the current ISVs can all arrive and remain in orbit (seeing as most of the crew is in cryo, there are no concerns for food or water) until they have enough numbers to either reconquer Hell's Gate or rebuild on another part of the moon. I don't see the RDA giving up on it's own monopoly so quickly, especially considering how much of it's technology depends on Unm (Unobtanium). Concerning army forces, it would not be unlikely that this is the first step to go.

I see the RDA as a bruised and battered beast that only needs time to heal. If the crisis on Earth gets bad enough due to the lack of Unm, then the RDA will either receive full governmental backing, or it will sink and give birth to alternative superconductors. That's why I see the RDA going for the desperate move and maintain all out bound ISVs at Pandora.

[kintìomum]

Well if what are we one about here then? Do we try and prove that there is absolutely no chance that the RDA will grab a foothold on Pandora again? There are many plot holes left that can be exploited.

No, just trying to prove that it'll be quite difficult. The first time the RDA set foot on Pandora the Na'vi knew nothing about them. Now that's different. The Na'vi are warned and will surely not just sit and wait...

First of all, if the FTL messages work trough a tunneling system this means there is a potential for wormhole development somewhere in the future. This would indeed take more than 10 years, but the main thing is that it can happen and then Pandora would truly be in trouble.

Terrible trouble indeed. Even if it just works in zero-G (meaning in orbit) the travel time would be at a close zero and ships could be built using all the room that's now needed for the interstellar drive for more cargo...

Now back to the original premise, according to which humans don't really have a shot at retaking Pandora with current tech. I am trying to claim that this is not necessarily true. Avoiding all concepts of new ships and improved cargo capacity or velocity, the current ISVs can all arrive and remain in orbit (seeing as most of the crew is in cryo, there are no concerns for food or water) until they have enough numbers to either reconquer Hell's Gate or rebuild on another part of the moon.

And THAT's exactly why I opened a thread for this. I didn't think of them just "hoarding" troops in orbit and thought that they would have to call the ISVs back.
Now, that would be nasty. With 4.5 years waiting time (perhaps the crew can go to cryo, too) they would have 8 ships in orbit meaning almost 480 troops and -given a full complement in the ISV cargo bays- 200 AMP suits with one landing of the Valkyries.
If these touch down in a remote area there will be at least a second load on the ground before the Na'vi are able to react or maybe even before they are able to get message to other clans...
Damn, even financially it's the better solution. If the ISVs return to Earth they burn fuel for nothing and since they burn antimatter it would be a terribly expensive ride!

I don't see the RDA giving up on it's own monopoly so quickly, especially considering how much of it's technology depends on Unm (Unobtanium). Concerning army forces, it would not be unlikely that this is the first step to go.

I see the RDA as a bruised and battered beast that only needs time to heal. If the crisis on Earth gets bad enough due to the lack of Unm, then the RDA will either receive full governmental backing, or it will sink and give birth to alternative superconductors. That's why I see the RDA going for the desperate move and maintain all out bound ISVs at Pandora.

The ASG states that Unobtanium is the key for the largest part of the RDAs profit so it's very likely they'll take your approach and build a base camp with the ressources on board the ISVs. Then they'll have to wait "only" some years until reinforcements arrive.
And the RDA would have eyes and ears on spot.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Wow, this is getting intense.

I love all of the math here by the way. Very cogent points (that was my big word of the day).

Okay, well since we are in the "customs and culture" discussion area, let me pose this possibility. By the way, I will assume the math is correct so that I can focus on my point. Hypothesis:

VS is returning home. Due to the instant communication (Superluminal--ASG. 156) earth "knows" what is going on, and that means that ALL 9 other Capital Star Class Interstellar Vehicles (CSCIV's) know what is going on as well. You simply cannot point your CSCIV at a point in space and say "Good luck boys!" we will talk to you in 5-6 years to see how things went!"

So, while RDA corporate argues over what to do, at least 2-3 CSCIV's are probably en route to the big P. I have heard that the sequels will (possibly) include OTHER moons. I see no reason the RDA won't step up their production by creating a base on a local moon--one the blue monkeys can't shoot an arrow at--and as there is no water on those moons, the possibility of hostile life seems to be close to zero. This provides a staging point, not unlike anything on Mars, Io, or any asteroid the RDA is currently grinding into dust.

HOWEVER: I think the real action will be in a Star wars-esque backlash from any of the following: pirates, smugglers, anarchists, "socially conscious activists" and stolen ships, stolen avatars, maybe a rebellious religious zealot hell bent on bringing Jesus to the demon-worshiping Na'vi. My point here is that given a baseline social factor (to create the story line), the technology, being in place already, will easily support a return to Pandora. There is simply too much money, and even if the RDA board of directors knows what the cost will be, there will be TONS of misinformation all over Terra, and that means opportunism. I can see a "wild west" gold rush happening. Quietly at first, with a few privateer prospectors seeking "just a few tons/tonnes" of Ub12 (or whatever the scientific number is for Unobtanium), followed by a mass invasion of idiots and those who were sold (for a hefty profit) swamp land on Pandora, or a dream of a new paradise. The RDA may find itself overrun by its closest competitors and a whole mess of pirate or refugee ships on their way to Pandoradise (see? I make funny!)

The RDA is under contract: NO WEAPONS IN SPACE! If they have adhered to that, this would put them at a disadvantage (death by a thousand cuts). If they have not (and we are talking about FOX, (sorry) Walmart, (dammit!) the RDA here), then it should be fun seeing them play Battlestar Galactica and disposing of any human invasion force. The only thing worse than an attempted retake of HG from a force garrisoned on one of Pandora's sisters would be a million insects suddenly showing up in their RVs, watching NASCAR (no offense is intended to actual NASCAR fans--this is just fictional), and throwing their beer cans out the hatch.

Conclusion: Yes, I believe the RDA is coming back. 1 or 2 ships (full of equipment and scientists) may be diverted to a nearby moon to investigate and set up shop--just enough to make a welcoming party for the REAL SHIP in 5 years who comes fully loaded with the tools to set up a preliminary base-camp. That could (conceivably) grow into a fully operational station.

Spoiler

"As you can see, my young apprentice, your friends have failed. Now witness the firepower of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL battle station!"

But I fear the real threat to Pandora is all of the Earth-based hype of its "promise of a brave new world." When the public finds out (mostly through rumor, but certainly when the price of everything skyrockets, as it must do with the source of the new super-rock being closed off) that Pandora is now "off limits," there will have to be a stampede. Humans are famous for their sense of entitlement and egoic demands. We even make our gods look like us (except for the Hindu ones, who are blue--interestingly enough--but then again, so are the Pleiadians I believe). I think the RDA will be hard-pressed by their own disgruntled factory workers, customers, and even some shareholders. Some will want revenge, some will want "new leadership" (read: more profits), and some will probably want to take matters into their own hands.

Finally, the RDA is the Toruk of Terran space, but a thousand banshees led by an upstart might just race past the mighty Toruk and head to Pandora to get their hands on some (whatever it is they are after--Pandora is rich with all kinds of promises for a better Earth). The RDA may be caught in lawsuit hell now, and the hyenas may attack.

[Nawm Karyu]

Great stuff brothers and sisters, keep on posting and viewing )

After reading more of the ASG (which just arrived yesterday), I am beginning to understand that the RDA is an incredibly Orwellian organization. This opens up a scenario where the whole situation might be salvaged on Earth by using certain propaganda, lies, and some convincing tactical plans of reconquest. The way I read into things, the virtual panopticon (as expanded by John Twelve Hawks upon the theory created by Jeremy Bentham) exists by 2154 and is used by the RDA to maintain a strong hold on its image ground side. So the only problems it might face will come from higher up in the economical and deeply political hierarchies. These can be easily swayed considering the investments put in and the astounding profits already made. This is my basic argument for the RDA surely returning to Pandora in force and with a bigger technological advantage than before.

Next only the list of things that we need to consider, and move this thread along to, is the IMPACT a human return has, is and will have upon the Na'vi as a people and culture. A human return to Pandora means that the Na'vi now have a place in their culture for Demons that came down from the sky. Their culture will start changing in order to accommodate the fact that these beings from far away, whom they managed to defeat only thanks to Eywa and her chosen Toruk Makto, might and probably will, come back. This is an interesting factor that should be further taken into account here in this discussion.

The RDA will return. How? Where and when? These questions are excellent subjects for speculation and discussion. The thing is that if I combine the ASG and Avatar as a source of information about Earth, the RDA, Eywa and the Na'vi, I see another battle between Good and Bad on the lines of the Gray. People on Earth that know the truth about the events that transpired on Pandora will see it as a sign for the start of their revolt as Kaltxì Palulukan! has stated. How far things will go? I need to dwell on this a bit more and read some more of your opinions.

In the mean time here are a few of the sources I based this post on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Virtual%20Panopticon

[kintìomum]

(snippedisnap)

The math was actually performed by some in head calculations and further adjusted by the use of a calculator to do the days-per-year-math...

Now, the military point proving to be difficult was discussed enough, I think. There's no easy way for the RDA to get back and just wipe out every Na'vi standing between them and the Unobtanium.
The idea with settling on another moon is another reason why I opened this thread. It didn't come to my mind!
I think I'll have to go back to "corporate ways to cut losses 101"...

I guess you're right when you say that lawyer will be a very profitable job on Earth...
263 million shareholders sounds impressive for a single corp. But if these shareholders demand open access to Pandora ("Give me a ticket or... whatever") there won't be much the leaderboard can do.
They might actually decide that it's a great thing to just drop wave after wave of colonists until the Na'vi run out of arrows...

According to my math earlier there are four ships homebound and four en route towards Pandora. So, take the latest two that started from Earth and call them back, this leaves you with 6 ships to equip for a "blast 'em blue boys"-mission.
The gold rush... brr, bad feeling that it might happen. It's not that difficult to capture a ship even if the RDA has control over all things flying beyond close orbit.
There's a story from the port of Hamburg that they "lost" a load of steel. In fact, several trucks of best grade building steel designated for a dock... Why? They came and looked as if they had the right to get the steel loaded on the trucks they drove in...
How difficult can it be then to capture a shuttle that's targeted at some leisure resort in space and instead of hanging leisurely in the air taking an unsuspecting ISV that was just ready with refitting?

On the RDA=Toruk point:
The RDA was granted the right to exploit space by the International Corporate Association (could someone please look up ICA? I forgot the meaning!) in exchange for not arming to the teeth and a no-go on weapons of mass destruction (and since we know that it's corporate business there might have been some unmarked suitcases involved).
Now, why shouldn't the ICA recall on their your-the-one policy? Competition is good for business, no?
A mob on the verge of tearing ICA-property apart can be pretty convincing, I guess...

[Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan]

First, let me say, I agree with the theory that the humans will be back. It ALWAYS happens when ever humans get kicked out of some planet that they think they own.

Secondly, I personally believe that the second movie will either be set those 11.92 or however many years in the future, or more hopefully, it will explore Pandora in more detail. If it is set these years in the future, what is to say that RDA doesn't get ships that are capable of lightspeed or faster. The Alpha Centauri system is 4.37 lightyears away, so the RDA already has ships that are capable of sub-lightspeeds.

Third, I would have to agree that the ISV fleet will probably be used in the attempted retaking of Pandora, if I had to venture a guess, it would be something like the Trade Federation blockade of the Star Wars movie, but who knows.

One thing's for sure, the second movie will be a surprise no matter what they do with it, especially with all this speculation.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Okay, this is all good--it's brilliant discussion--but please, please, please consider this:

("GetcherASG's out boy 'n grrls")

Page XV: ". . . the largest single commercially directed organization in the universe . . ."

1: For every WalMart, there is a CostCo, Target, or Sears (once the WalMart of the 18- &1900's). For every Mc Donnel Douglas (built the Apollo missions) there is a Rocketdyne (builds space crap), a General Dynamics, and a few Chinese-owned mega corps.

2: Rogue governments

3: The mob, pirates, or quasi-shadow organizatiosn (rich boys who want to quietly offset the power of the RDA, mob, government(s), et al.

4: Terrorists.

and most horrifying:

5: The church (pick your favorite--"dem demon-loving freaks must die! Yeeeeeehaw! Where's my shotgun?")

What if the RDA doesn't get there first? Or they get tehre to find that someone has REALLY screwed thing up? or, they DO send the two-four ships to set up camp on the neighboring planet AND THEN (1-5) shows up? The RDA may not quite get to Pandora. Now, granted--as far as the actual movie has to go, we must have Na'vi. (Our current) buying public wants 10' tall blue elves. They want squawky  birds. They want big red monsters--or NEW big monsters. But the story is demanding the RDA be punished (by circumstance, not by any governmental agency). So, what do you think?

[Toruk Makto]

Eywa'eveng is a moon with a lot of superconducting material in it's mass. Very tasty for possible weapon use. The ASG mentions something about discharges in the flux vortex, so why not make the vortex into a large particle accelerator and zap the ships as they ingress into the ACA system? Or maybe create something like a maglev railgun and shoot big chucks of Unobtainium at them? Many plot possibilities present themselves.

Also remember, Jake is an ex-marine. He has to have some tactics training. And Eywa's capabilities are still a big unknown.

[Txur’Itan]

Eywa'eveng is a moon with a lot of superconducting material in it's mass. Very tasty for possible weapon use. The ASG mentions something about discharges in the flux vortex, so why not make the vortex into a large particle accelerator and zap the ships as they ingress into the ACA system? Or maybe create something like a maglev railgun and shoot big chucks of Unobtainium at them? Many plot possibilities present themselves.

Also remember, Jake is an ex-marine. He has to have some tactics training. And Eywa's capabilities are still a big unknown.

Would they be able to create super heated unobtanium plasma with all of that isolated and peculiar magnetics?

[pbhead]

According to my math earlier there are four ships homebound and four en route towards Pandora. So, take the latest two that started from Earth and call them back

you cant do that! the ISV's only have enough fuel to either 1. go from orbit to .7C OR from .7C to orbit. Now... if a ship was still in its acceleration phase of the trip... it is concievable that it could turn around... but if a ship spent .4 years getting to .5 c... and another .6 years turning around to head back to earth at .2 C... just not really practical.

Every ship enroute to pandora is preety stuck on its way towards pandora.

However, every ship has a stereolithography factory onboard... so... if they could get materials, they can build preety much everything except very complex electronics... so with a bit of Ingenuity, I would say that any ISV could create a new colony on pandora, or anywhere else for that matter.

One more thing... in the 2007 script... Jake Sully, in his last video, said that "the science people will keep the lights on"... aka... hell's gate is still, to some degree, operational. 

Kaltxi palulukan:  your post is... intresting. if anything close to anything like that finds its way into avatar 2... I think I will be very disillusioned with avatar.

One more thing... we dont see The venture star leave orbit.. we dont even know if it has refueled enough TO leave orbit... its supposed to be in orbit for a full year... I dont know how long it takes to manufacture enough antimatter and harvest enough deuterium... but if its not finished refueling... its going to have issues.

Txepaisu: the navi are not going to make railguns or particle accelerators anytime soon... or do you mean the rda? both of which seem... impossible... and once again.. i would be very sad if such... gets into avatar 2.

[Toruk Makto]

Eywa'eveng is a moon with a lot of superconducting material in it's mass. Very tasty for possible weapon use. The ASG mentions something about discharges in the flux vortex, so why not make the vortex into a large particle accelerator and zap the ships as they ingress into the ACA system? Or maybe create something like a maglev railgun and shoot big chucks of Unobtainium at them? Many plot possibilities present themselves.

Also remember, Jake is an ex-marine. He has to have some tactics training. And Eywa's capabilities are still a big unknown.

Would they be able to create super heated unobtanium plasma with all of that isolated and peculiar magnetics?

I would think that would destroy the superconducting property of the material. Exciting matter to a plasma state pretty much denatures the originating mass.

The Na'vi are a technically unsophisticated culture. Why not just use the magnetic field of the moon to throw rocks at the damned sawtute?   

[pbhead]

Pasting this from the Proper forum for such dicussion... but no one bothered to post in my thread... about... humans... pandora.. and ships... so... ctrl+c Ctrl+v.

SO... has anyone else noticed things that could potentially lead into a sequel? 

For example: what happend to all the humans that left pandora?

If there were less than 200 survivers... its a non-issue... they are placed into stasis, and the ship continues to orbit untill it is refueled, and heads home.


What if there were more than 200 survivers... the ISV only has lifesupport for its crew durring the return trip... and 200 cryochambers... its also only been in orbit (refueling) for 3 months, the ISVs are designed to stay in orbit for a year... of course... we dont know if it takes that full year to refuel, but it prolly takes a good portion of that time, considering they need to manufacture antimatter, and collect significant quantities of deuterium and tritium from polymorphus for the return trip.  If there are more than 200 survivers, they could not all be placed into cryo... and the ISV could not just continue to refuel, as it would run out of life support.

Also... I think i remember something about the antimatter being manufactured, not on the space ship, but at hells gate.. which would mean that if its antimatter reserves were not completely replenished... it once again, could not return to earth. (if it were 80% replenished... it might be able to jettison its unobtanium cargo, (350 tons (i am going to assume metric here... since there is no freaking way the world had not converted to metric by this point)), and... while i have not done the math... it might be able to get up to speed if it were underweight (although... depending on the engine design... there MAY be issues with the issue that the ship, at full power, would accelerate faster than 1.5g (the max the ship can take... although hopefully things are still engineered to be able to take 2x the specs)... and if the engine is designed in such a matter than it can only be "on" or "off"...

In other words... alot of things would have to have gone right for the ISV to be able to immediatly begin its return trip to earth.

James cameron mentions that the sequels may talk about the other moons of polymorphus... if they have their stethography planet still on board the ISV, trying to set up an outpost on another rock in that solar system may be the only option, since they dont have the fuel or lifesupport to travel back to sol.  (and not to mention... another ISV WILL arrive 10-11 months from the point where the movie ends.... and another 14 months after that... and another... and another... since once they are accelerated to .7 C they only have enough fuel to stop... which would be very very bad if they are not at earth or pandora... and there are 12 of these ships equally spaced.)

Also... according to the 2007 script... "the science guys will keep the lights on"... so hell's gate still, to some degree, is functional.


So. while i realize... this all has to do with the the hummies (and the Na'vi prolly could care less what happens to them)... it still means that another ship will arrive to alpha centauri 11 months or so after the movie ends.

anyway... thoughts?

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

snip--interesting points

Yes-- my first post covered the idea of the RDA colonizing the adjacent moon, as a starter for new discussion. The second post was a "food for thought" post designed to remove any automatic assumptions that the RDA had no competitors or that the only way Av 2 or 3 could play out was "the same people coming back . . ." (yawn). I would not be disappointed if JC refused to be boxed in by retelling the same story (more humans from RDA try to retake Pandora). But I like the way people are all bringing new points to the table, especially yours on the Venture Star potentially having to cobble together a camp.

With superluminal communications, the Terran bosses have "real time updates" and probably watched this all unfold. By the time we see the final scene, they have probably had a few emergency board meanings (and rumors have been leaked out by employees, or anyone who was able to intercept the communications). They may "already have orders" to do exactly that: land a shuttle on _____ and prep for the next ship to arrive. I think that no matter what happens next, the LAST thing the RDA wants is one of their crown jewels cooling its heels at the end of a botched mission-trip. Unobtanium or not, someone is scrambling to keep this from being a total loss--or turning even a scant profit from the next few ships' arrivals.