Pamrelfya a'Eoio

[Key'ìl Nekxetse]

Ulte nìmun!

[MIPP]

Ma Prrton,

can't you give me/us a beta font for the eoio, or something? I personally would love to write ^^

Ma MIPP,

Tsmukan Kemaweyan is creating the font as a font. I don't have anything now other than artwork. You'll have to talk to him. I don't know if he's going to create a "beta testing" program or not. 

Ngati kame ma Prrton,

thank you, but if you don't have it, then couldn't you write here the symbols so that I can make copy and paste?

One thing I'm quite pleased with is the promise of legibility at smaller point sizes. It works very well out of my laser printer at home at a size that's roughly the equivalent of 12 pt. Of course, it's not as legible as the roman alphabet or even Japanese or Chinese, but they have been optimized by centuries (if not millennia) of kaizen (改善, "improvement for the better (and benefit of society)").

Like you did there (改善), but with the symbols for each letter (and other thing that you think that are important). Btw, also in Na'vi and not in Japanese or Chinese (as those symbols aren't Na'vi, or so I think).

Ma Kemaweyan (copy-paste just saved me), ma Prrton said he can't, so can you?

[Kì'eyawn]

Ma Prrton, zene oe pivlltxe nìmun, san Fì'u lu tìkangkem atxantsan sìk.  Slä lu oer mesìpawm:

Could you explain those punctuation marks you have on the 6th line, between ay- and -ur?

And on the glyphs for san and sìk, are those two little dots part of those characters?

Oh, and... no glyphs for "Na'vi" or "Eywa" anymore?

[Prrton]

Ma Prrton, zene oe pivlltxe nìmun, san Fì'u lu tìkangkem atxantsan sìk.  Slä lu oer mesìpawm:

Could you explain those punctuation marks you have on the 6th line, between ay- and -ur?

And on the glyphs for san and sìk, are those two little dots part of those characters?

Oh, and... no glyphs for "Na'vi" or "Eywa" anymore?

Ma Tsmuke,

The punctuation, while still one of the tentative things appears above as:

  short spacer, long spacer, lenition marker (lenition happened here), comma, period, semi-colon?,
  Proper Name marker (goes on first letter of a person's name or name of a place. There is no capitalization),
  exclamation point (extended glottal stop).

The idea behind the sort and long spacers is that you may want to connect things that are different words or part of the same word, but slightly distinct. They are "built in" to fì- and tsa- and fne-. These are "freestyle" ones that could be used in other circumstances.

Yes the two dots are "built in" to san and sìk, but I don't feel strongly about that if people don't like it.

I'm standing by to finalize Na'vi and Eywa and other words that need custom compounds. I asked tsmukan Kemaweyan in the package I delivered to him which ones he wanted me to create. Fra- is also missing (I noticed after the fact). I could make them for days, but it is a lot of trouble to add each one to the font. It has to be coded to be able to be called as a custom glyph, so I don't know how much of that Kem can tolerate. I expect that he'll be OK to add those two, but more importantly, are there others that people *demand*? I think we'd only have them (they'd only exist) if they were important to the Na'vi.

I assume from your question that you'd like to have Na'vi and Eywa. Here are some other candidates:

• fra-
• Na'vi
• Eywa
• one for each of the main colors
• slu
• tsun
• swey
• ngay
• Toruk Makto
• Rey'eng
• meoauniaea
• ...??

What do people want?

Keep in mind that there is no guarantee that they can/will go into the font.

['Oma Tirea]

'Awa tìpawm ahì'i: What type of writing system is this?  Ideographic, syllabic, something similar to the abjad/abugida writing systems, or simply alphabetical?

[Prrton]

'Awa tìpawm ahì'i: What type of writing system is this?  Ideographic, syllabic, something similar to the abjad/abugida writing systems, or simply alphabetical?

It's alphabetic. Some of the compounds turn into compartmentalized syllables, but they can all be broken down into their constituent parts (which are individual alphabetic letters).

[Kì'eyawn]

Kaltxì, ma Prrton.  So, with the lenition marker (which i really like, btw), if you had a long plural with lenition, would it look something like this?

ay:haryu

As for the word glyphs...  ::looks at printout::

Personally, i'm inclined to keep them to a minimum; Na'vi and Eywa were the big ones i thought should be in there, since they're kinda important.  I'm also inclined to have kame, but since the only other writing systems i know are Greek and Tengwar, i have absolutely no idea what determines what words get their own symbols in a language that has such things.

But, since i see you have fya and 'u, you might consider rounding out the set and adding tseng, tu(te?), and kem, kefyak?

I was surprised you did -am and -ay; i wasn't under the impression those were productive, so i don't see them being all that necessary.  If anything, i might do the actual words hay and ham—but even those don't strike me as particularly vital.

I definitely agree with lu and si being in there.

On another note, could you explain the number writing system a bit more, ma 'eylan?  I'm not sure i understand how it would all come together.  Like, how would you write pxevolaw in your system? 

Oh, and speaking of which, i liked me- and pxe-; but since you went through the trouble of designing a glyph for the actual number 'aw, doesn't it seem likely there would be glyphs for all the number words 'aw-vol?

[Prrton]

Kaltxì, ma Prrton.  So, with the lenition marker (which i really like, btw), if you had a long plural with lenition, would it look something like this?

ay:haryu

I was thinking it would only be used (possibly like verb infixes) as an explicit tool to show lenition with SHORT plurals:

  :sokx
  :eylan
  :sawtute, etc.

If you have an ay- or me- or pxe- there, you SEE why the lenition is happening, unambiguously.

Personally, i'm inclined to keep them to a minimum; Na'vi and Eywa were the big ones i thought should be in there, since they're kinda important.  I'm also inclined to have kame, but since the only other writing systems i know are Greek and Tengwar, i have absolutely no idea what determines what words get their own symbols in a language that has such things.

I've been thinking about Na'vi writing more or less like Dark Ages scribes or Mayan Scribes cloistered away doing their own thing so there really aren't a lot of rules about what would be in and what would be out from that perspective. I like the idea of things that are OFTEN used being in. They don't have to be "productive" per se. We use 1st 2nd 3rd in English. They're not "purely" productive in those formats. 1º 1ª, 2eme, etc. are a bit closer to productive in Spanish and French, but they are essentially abbreviations, like etc. Now, for the things I've been creating compounds for in Na'vi, they're not necessarily ABBREVIATED. All the letters/sounds are there, but they still FUNCTION like abbreviations. They *POP* to the eye instead of just being another ol' series of letters in the flow of text.

But, since i see you have fya and 'u, you might consider rounding out the set and adding tseng, tu(te?), and kem, kefyak?

SRANE. These are exactly the kinds of things that I wanted others to point out because I hadn't thought of them, but these are PERFECT candidates.

- tseng
- tut.-e, -an
- kem

I was surprised you did -am and -ay; i wasn't under the impression those were productive, so i don't see them being all that necessary.  If anything, i might do the actual words hay and ham—but even those don't strike me as particularly vital.

I definitely agree with lu and si being in there.

-am
-ay

are NOT fully productive, but neither is -vi (nor tì-, nì-, sä-). However, they are used a lot for pxiswawam, rewonay, etc.

On another note, could you explain the number writing system a bit more, ma 'eylan?  I'm not sure i understand how it would all come together.  Like, how would you write pxevolaw in your system?

I would just write the three glyphs side by side with a little space in between (like Ì and I get). That's the way it would work in Chinese or Japanese.

   

The non-Na'vi glyphs are just included for practical sawtute purposes.

Oh, and speaking of which, i liked me- and pxe-; but since you went through the trouble of designing a glyph for the actual number 'aw, doesn't it seem likely there would be glyphs for all the number words 'aw-vol?

I did originally create them, but have never shown them publicly. They didn't seem that practical to me in the end. There are lots of variations too. The numeral glyph for pxe, pxey, pey can be pronounced however is appropriate for its context, but 'aw is an important (and more stable) component in LOTS of words. Nì'aw, nì'awtu, 'awsiteng, a'aw... Mun would be another good candidate, but I don't think the others would be, so much.

[Kì'eyawn]

I was thinking it would only be used (possibly like verb infixes) as an explicit tool to show lenition with SHORT plurals:

 :sokx
 :eylan
 :sawtute, etc.

If you have an ay- or me- or pxe- there, you SEE why the lenition is happening, unambiguously.

I suppose that's true.  I was just thinking that it would aid word comprehension.  But then, since Karyu Pawl decided on a writing system that favors faithful transcription of the sounds—rather than, say, writing the plural of karyu as "kharyu," as (i think) Irish handles lenition...  Yeah, sentence to nowhere, i'll stop now XD

But, since i see you have fya and 'u, you might consider rounding out the set and adding tseng, tu(te?), and kem, kefyak?

SRANE. These are exactly the kinds of things that I wanted others to point out because I hadn't thought of them, but these are PERFECT candidates.

- tseng
- tut.-e, -an
- kem

ooh, yes, another good point, some way to handle those gender suffixes—but how to write -e as different from any old e?

-am
-ay

are NOT fully productive, but neither is -vi (nor tì-, nì-, sä-). However, they are used a lot for pxiswawam, rewonay, etc.

Point taken.  I underestimated how common they are.

I would just write the three glyphs side by side with a little space in between (like Ì and I get). That's the way it would work in Chinese or Japanese.

 

The non-Na'vi glyphs are just included for practical sawtute purposes.

Okay, so it's basically like saying "3 x 8 + 1".  Got it.  I just didn't know if you'd repeat the vol symbol three times or something (i didn't think so).

Oh, and speaking of which, i liked me- and pxe-; but since you went through the trouble of designing a glyph for the actual number 'aw, doesn't it seem likely there would be glyphs for all the number words 'aw-vol?

I did originally create them, but have never shown them publicly. They didn't seem that practical to me in the end. There are lots of variations too. The numeral glyph for pxe, pxey, pey can be pronounced however is appropriate for its context, but 'aw is an important (and more stable) component in LOTS of words. Nì'aw, nì'awtu, 'awsiteng, a'aw... Mun would be another good candidate, but I don't think the others would be, so much.

Hmm...  I suppose you're right—especially if you've also made a system for writing numerals.  That would seem a bit overkill...  

Tam, i'm satisfied  Irayo, ma Prrton.

Edit:  I had one more thought.  If you have glyphs for si and lu, maybe tìng should have one, too?

[Prrton]

Ma oeyä eylan,

Here's the official first stab at the curvy stuff. My proposed name for this "font" would be Tstxota Tsyokxta ("from the hand" (Thanks to Tsmukan Plumps for the correction. If I only had a brain.)), if in fact it ever becomes a font. I won't tell you exactly what this says, but it's from the film. Different lines from different scenes. Both are spoken by women. Two different women.

One of them incorporates Tsmuke Kì'eyawnä idea about creating a custom glyph for kem. One tricky thing about the handwriting is that there are two different versions of A. One has all of the strokes of the 'Eoio A. The other is just basically a small circle. Both can occur even in the same word. Also, U doesn't look a lot like its form in 'Eoio. It has a looping tail that goes down and back up to the line to join with the next letter. In 'Eoio proper nouns are marked with a straight vertical line that goes up as high as anything else. In Tsyokxta, proper nouns (names) are marked with a curved line that veers off up and to the right from the marked letter. Actually, technically speaking (as one would write it with a pen or brush), it veers down and to the left from the upper right to *aim* at the top of the indicated first letter of the proper noun. It's also important to note that "size matters." One of the A variants is a circle. MeM is also a circle (only ever a circle), but it will always be bigger than an A written as a small circular form. Fä also has 2 variants, each with a single loop within the body of the glyph, but at different orientations.

OK, who will be the first to figure out which two bits of dialog these are from the film?

One more hint. Remember that there is no question mark. Questions are simply ended with a standard *period*.



     



         Etrìpa syayvi!  

[Plumps]

My proposed name for this "font" would be Tstxota ("from the hand"), if in fact it ever becomes a font.

You mean Tsyokxta "from the hand", kefyak?

Now that, to me, really looks like calligraphy from Japanese or Chinese
I haven't worked with the glyphs at all, so can't take a guess

[Payä Tìrol]

Pamrel lu:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Neytiri: ma Tsu'tey, kempe si nga.

Moat: tsaswiräti lonu ' aynga neto rivikx.
fìketuwongti oel stìyeftxaw.

Interesting that you appear to have dropped the stress and affix markers. Although I suppose :iy/ìy would look kind of odd under that system, when moved to handwriting...

[Prrton]

My proposed name for this "font" would be Tstxota ("from the hand"), if in fact it ever becomes a font.

You mean Tsyokxta "from the hand", kefyak?

Now that, to me, really looks like calligraphy from Japanese or Chinese
I haven't worked with the glyphs at all, so can't take a guess

Yes! Ngaru tìyawr nìwotx! I'm really dyslexic about words that end in KxeKx, and often other things.

Most of the rules about simplifying the strokes are things from Japanese. The only thing that is quite different is that these would only be *parts* of of Kanji. Things would fit together very differently and there would be no suggestion of a line flowing left to right in this kind of up~down fashion. I'm not really sure if I like this yet or not. I'm curious to hear what others think.

Thanks for the correction!!

   

[Prrton]

   Ngaru kop tìyawr leiu nìwotx, ma Payä Tìrol!

   Seykxel sì nitram!

Pamrel lu:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Neytiri: ma Tsu'tey, kempe si nga.

Moat: tsaswiräti lonu ' aynga neto rivikx.
fìketuwongti oel stìyeftxaw.

Interesting that you appear to have dropped the stress and affix markers. Although I suppose :iy/ìy would look kind of odd under that system, when moved to handwriting...

I've been recently thinking of stress marking as optional. There is no reason this font couldn't do it too. But, I really wonder if people would take the time to carefully write out verb infixes in handwriting? A teacher in a classroom, maybe, but we have no indication that such a classroom would exist on Pandora. In order for said infixes to make sense as "handwriting" they'd have to be highly simplified and that would greatly impede legibility. What would folks want if this were real or going to become real?

[Sireayä mokri]

Ma oeyä eylan,

Here's the official first stab at the curvy stuff. My proposed name for this "font" would be Tstxota ("from the hand"), if in fact it ever becomes a font.

I love it. Indeed it really looks like all that asian stuff. But if you have other variants I'd like to look at them as well.

[Prrton]

Ma oeyä eylan,

Here's the official first stab at the curvy stuff. My proposed name for this "font" would be Tstxota ("from the hand"), if in fact it ever becomes a font.

I love it. Indeed it really looks like all that asian stuff. But if you have other variants I'd like to look at them as well.

Love is good! Very glad to see the love, but unfortunately I don't have any more variations and won't have any time to do that for the foreseeable future. In fact, the (old) new front door with all of its endless need for paint scraping is waiting for me in front of the house. It feels like it will never be done. Ugh!

[Sireayä mokri]

Love is good! Very glad to see the love, but unfortunately I don't have any more variations and won't have any time to do that for the foreseeable future. In fact, the (old) new front door with all of its endless need for paint scraping is waiting for me in front of the house. It feels like it will never be done. Ugh!

Alright, then. I'm happy with this one as well

[Kì'eyawn]

Tewti, ma Prrton!  Tsaw leiu lor nìngay!  They definitely do look Asian-inspired—"kem" and "fì-" both look distinctly like hiragana to me.  But that's not a bad thing.

I will say, i had to take advantage of Payä Tìrol's superior intellect, as i couldn't make heads or tails of much of it—but then, i have a hard time reading cursive English, so...  Let's not make my comprehension (or lack thereof) any sort of metric.

[Payä Tìrol]

Prrton is pretty consistent with how he does his cursive characters. I wish I could say the same of some other people

[Kemaweyan]

Well.. Yesterday and today I was working with this font. I've found the way to move the glyphs from pdf to FontForge as vector images, so the font will look the same as in pdf There was some issues with size of characters, but I hope I found the solution. I've tried and I like the result So tomorrow I'm going to create all basic glyphs and maybe I'll show those here as "beta version"