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Author Topic: Pamrelfya a'Eoio  (Read 21107 times)
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Prrton
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« Reply #150 on: September 17, 2010, 01:43:32 pm »

Ma Prrton, you're a lefty too?  Oel ngati kameie, ma "tsmukan aftär".


I am very left-handed only.  Wink


Tse, kxawm fì'u ngeyä eltur tìtxen sayatsi, ma tsmukan.

I'm actually working on a post for my blog that's tangential to this.


I'll look forward to your post, but I'm a bit dubious about the «steyki» thing. Honestly, I don't feel it's personally relevant. It doesn't p••s me off at the same time.  Wink See! I rest my case.

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'eylan na'viyä
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« Reply #151 on: September 17, 2010, 08:57:56 pm »

Ngeyä Pamrelfyari irayo seiyi oe nìtxan.
it's really awesome.

I'm a bit late to the party but i want to present a funny idea i had recently.
When i read "... these letters do not sit on a baseline like the Roman alphabet, but rather 'hang' from an imaginary 'clothes line'..." on the sheet on the second page this inspired me to think about a completely different way of "writing". I had the idea not to paint something on a paper or carve something into stone or wood but instead work with leaves and branches.

I tried to transform your font to be representable in this way by replacing closed lines with planes.


It's quite hard to see and read everything easily on this photo. the background is very noisy. sorry for that but it's hard to prevent that in a forest Wink It's much easier to see when you stand in front of it. A 3d camera would have been handy in that situation Wink

Let's see if you could read it. I think this example is not too hard to find out. many letters are repeated and it is short.
important note: the first letter just dissolved before i took the photo but i did not notice that until now. It's the same letter as the 7th. (complete count: 9 letters)

I must also say that this was my very first attempt. I did many things wrong and it doesn't look really good but it has much potential for improvement. even after a bit of experimenting i was able to make letters much faster and more endurable. With some crafting skills with natural materials and some practice i could imagine you would be able to "write" quite fast.

I have also thought about the rest of the alphabet. i haven't done it yet but it seems to be possible. maybe compounds and numbers are a bit too hard to do.
All the "half open" letter (Zä - Tsä) could for example be done by just grabbing a leave at the "main little branch" and pull. This way you get a half circle formed edge and therefore 2 tapered sides which look similar to the original letters.

I also have some other conceptual thoughts so far:
-First i just thought of this as a funny idea but i think this could even have a practical usage beyond ceremonies. Imagine some hunters plan to meet somewhere but one of them has to leave earlier for some reason. He could leave a message to tell that he won't be there and where he went. A Na'vi SMS or Quick Note if you want Wink
-You could also transport subtle meaning by selection of the material, way of mounting, kind of leaves or the method of reshaping you use. It could even be part of artwork and jewelery
-Because most of the letter are symmetric i thought that a message may possibly be read in both directions. It would be even logical because unlike carved writings you can also see it from the back. Instead of writing from left to right you write from trunk to branch end (although i did it the other way round in my picture Wink )
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 05:07:48 pm by 'eylan na'viyä » Logged

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« Reply #152 on: September 17, 2010, 09:34:14 pm »

also have some other conceptual thoughts so far:
-First i just thought of this as a funny idea but i think this could even have a practical usage beyond ceremonies. Imagine some hunters plan to meet somewhere but one of them has to leave earlier for some reason. He could leave a message to tell that he won't be there and where he went. A Na'vi SMS or Quick Note if you want Wink
-You could also transport subtle meaning by selection of the material, way of mounting, kind of leaves or the method of reshaping you use. It could even be part of artwork and jewelery
-Because most of the letter are symmetric i thought that a message may possibly be read in both directions. It would be even logical because unlike carved writings you can also see it from the back. Instead of writing from left to right you write from trunk to branch end (although i did it the other way round in my picture Wink )


Not bad, although lately I have been having a thought of my own...

I fear this alphabet and this alphabet will be underappreciated compared to Prrtonä alphabet Sad


I don't like the fact that others' works somehow appear underappreciated in this forum. Angry

Tsaysu livu Reyi Pxaypxiwll sì oe.

...ulte srung sivi moe teri moeyä ayälfapet, rutxe!  Livu mowan moeru.

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ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!
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« Reply #153 on: September 17, 2010, 10:02:15 pm »

Sorry if you had a similar thought. I know it's a bad feeling when someone publishes something you also thought about. But don't hesitate to tell your ideas. It can still be a gain.

I fear this alphabet and this alphabet will be underappreciated compared to Prrtonä alphabet Sad


I don't like the fact that others' works somehow appear underappreciated in this forum. Angry


I do not underappreciate your work. I had the idea some day's ago. The other alphabets did not exist at that time. I just did not manage to post the image and text earlier. Besides that i think Prrton's alphabet is better suited for this. It almost looks like it was made for it Smiley
But that doesn't mean it could not be applied to other alphabets as well. Think of it as a 3rd domain next to spoken language and writing systems. Very much is independent from the alphabet.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 05:15:15 pm by 'eylan na'viyä » Logged

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« Reply #154 on: September 17, 2010, 10:14:02 pm »


I had the idea not to paint something on a paper or carve something into stone or wood but instead work with leaves and branches.

 ...

I also have some other conceptual thoughts so far:
-First i just thought of this as a funny idea but i think this could even have a practical usage beyond ceremonies. Imagine some hunters plan to meet somewhere but one of them has to leave earlier for some reason. He could leave a message to tell that he won't be there and where he went. A Na'vi SMS or Quick Note if you want Wink
-You could also transport subtle meaning by selection of the material, way of mounting, kind of leaves or the method of reshaping you use. It could even be part of artwork and jewelery
-Because most of the letter are symmetric i thought that a message may possibly be read in both directions. It would be even logical because unlike carved writings you can also see it from the back. Instead of writing from left to right you write from trunk to branch end (although i did it the other way round in my picture Wink )


I found this REALLY FASCINATING. I confess that I was not able to make out the very clever phrase without looking at the spoiler, but I can totally see where you're going and I really like these ideas. I can also see assigning sounds to individual leaves from the Pandoran forest (they have so many different varieties) and having each be its own sound. The messages you propose would just decompose naturally and leave no trace. They could persist for quite a while, but eventually they'd fade. LOVELY. The bark (do they have bark?) of trees would not even be damaged.

   Grin

I have LONG been a fan of Andy Goldsworthy. If you don't know his work, I strongly suggest that you check him out. You'll likely find his books at the library. Netflix has Rivers and Tides and you can probably find a trailer for it online.

Thank you so much for this. Honestly, I think this is a much more interesting idea than the Na'vi having a writing system based on "scratched symbols". It seems completely relevant to their existence.

Certain leaves tear in certain patterns more 'normally' than others based on their veining patterns. This strikes me as another fascinating thing to explore. If only we had some real Pandoran vegetation to experiment with!!

WOW.  Cheesy  Fì'u yawne lu oer nìwotx!!

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Prrton
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« Reply #155 on: September 17, 2010, 10:32:08 pm »


I don't like the fact that others' works somehow appear underappreciated in this forum. Angry

That would be namely Reyi Pxaypxiwll and me.


Ma 'Oma Tirea,

I'm really sorry that you feel the writing system things you've shared are under-appreciated. I just discovered Tsm. Reyi Pxaypxiwll's this morning and I've been very busy since then. I didn't have time to comment before I started my chores today. As I was sweeping the early Autumn leaves off of the roof this afternoon and cleaning out the gutters on the house, I thought I might offer to render her letters as vector graphics to see what whey would look like if they were not completely hand-written. I was planning on looking at them again this evening while also watching a couple of DVD's. There is a documentary on now about crossword puzzles. I'm REALLY BAD at crossword puzzles. I always have been, but the documentary is a little interesting to me. It's called Wordplay.

So I'm going now to ask some questions and give some observations about your and Reyi Pxaypxiwll's approaches.

I hope you'll find those engaging and helpful to you.

Most sincerely,

ta Prrton

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Kì'eyawn
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« Reply #156 on: September 18, 2010, 09:10:20 am »

Tewti, ma 'eylan na'viyä!  That's such a cool idea =)  I agree with Prrton; this is something that seems very appropriate for the Na'vi—leaving their mark in the forest, but in a way that will naturally fade away with time. I like it a lot =D
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eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...
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« Reply #157 on: September 18, 2010, 10:38:46 am »

I also have some other conceptual thoughts so far:
-First i just thought of this as a funny idea but i think this could even have a practical usage beyond ceremonies. Imagine some hunters plan to meet somewhere but one of them has to leave earlier for some reason. He could leave a message to tell that he won't be there and where he went. A Na'vi SMS or Quick Note if you want Wink
-You could also transport subtle meaning by selection of the material, way of mounting, kind of leaves or the method of reshaping you use. It could even be part of artwork and jewelery
-Because most of the letter are symmetric i thought that a message may possibly be read in both directions. It would be even logical because unlike carved writings you can also see it from the back. Instead of writing from left to right you write from trunk to branch end (although i did it the other way round in my picture Wink )

Fìkem si ayolo’ na’rìngä tompayä mì ’Rrta nìngay … Ke tsun ziverok slä tsalme’a fì’ut ’awlie fwa saronyul fayfne’upxaret txolìng fte eykivomum saronyur alahe fu suteru ta olo’ alahe tsenget a ultxa sivi fohu. Lu ’awsiteng fa tìngusop ayutraltsyìpit fu leykatem ayvulit (netrìp tsat ngal fìkem ke seiyi) slä tìkan lu tengfya.

This is actually done by rain forest tribes … I can’t remember where it was but I saw a documentary once where hunters left exactly these kind of messages to inform other hunters or people from another tribe where to meet. It also involved reshaping whole bushes or breaking/modelling branches (which you didn’t do, thank you very much) but the outcome is the same. Perhaps not a real alphabet but at least coded messages that get the meaning across Wink
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fwa fmi lu fwa flä – “to try is to succeed” || The Annotated Dictionary Project || oeyä pìlok
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« Reply #158 on: September 21, 2010, 09:48:22 pm »

Thanks for the responses.
I really apreciate.

sorry for letting you wait.


I found this REALLY FASCINATING. I confess that I was not able to make out the very clever phrase without looking at the spoiler, but I can totally see where you're going and I really like these ideas. I can also see assigning sounds to individual leaves from the Pandoran forest (they have so many different varieties) and having each be its own sound. The messages you propose would just decompose naturally and leave no trace. They could persist for quite a while, but eventually they'd fade. LOVELY. The bark (do they have bark?) of trees would not even be damaged.

   Grin


I was also surprised how good this all fits together.
Assigning sounds to individual leaves is also a nice idea. I think besides that they could also be assigned to symbolism that has to do with usage, their role in the forest, the places they grow on, any or other attributes or maybe even other individuals. By using special leaves you can put emphasize on the letter or word. maybe this could also be used instead of writing down infixes/prefixes/suffixes in some situations.

I have LONG been a fan of Andy Goldsworthy. If you don't know his work, I strongly suggest that you check him out. You'll likely find his books at the library. Netflix has Rivers and Tides and you can probably find a trailer for it online.

Thanks, i did not know him. I took a little look and i will definately watch more from his work.

Certain leaves tear in certain patterns more 'normally' than others based on their veining patterns. This strikes me as another fascinating thing to explore. If only we had some real Pandoran vegetation to experiment with!!

Yeah, it would be awesome to get at least a bit more detail about some Pandoran vegetation.


Within the last days i made many of the letters. I did not make all of them yet. I have ideas for some of them but not for all and also not for the diphtongs.
Maybe i can also create letters for special words, infixes, suffixes or prefixes. This mainly depends on how many distinguishable patterns are possible. I could maybe break symmetry for these like i did for numbers but i can't tell yet how good this would work yet.
I also try to build in a little redundancy, so you could still read it when you look closer, even if something fell off before it should.

Some things i noticed and figured out:
-you can easily create symmetric patterns by folding the leave.
-when you want make a gap between 2 side veins grab it between your index finger and your thumbnail and then pull the tissue between out.
-when you thread in a narrow leave into another fold it before, pull i through little holes which should be as small as possible and then unfold it. When the holes are small enough you need to tear it therefore. but thats good because then it won't be able to fall off.
-you can do something similar when mounting rounder leaves too. (done with 'Rr and 'Ll)
-you can create 2 holes at once by folding a leave 2 times

(I think you would also figure out those technics quickly when you try it yourself and maybe also find new ones)


It doesn't look much better in this attempt but i think it would look much more beautiful in an pandoran forest anyway Wink
And sorry, some of the images are not as sharp as they could have been.  
Vowls

Consonants
There is an image limit, so i put it on the next post.



Fìkem si ayolo’ na’rìngä tompayä mì ’Rrta nìngay … Ke tsun ziverok slä tsalme’a fì’ut ’awlie fwa saronyul fayfne’upxaret txolìng fte eykivomum saronyur alahe fu suteru ta olo’ alahe tsenget a ultxa sivi fohu. Lu ’awsiteng fa tìngusop ayutraltsyìpit fu leykatem ayvulit (netrìp tsat ngal fìkem ke seiyi) slä tìkan lu tengfya.

This is actually done by rain forest tribes … I can’t remember where it was but I saw a documentary once where hunters left exactly these kind of messages to inform other hunters or people from another tribe where to meet. It also involved reshaping whole bushes or breaking/modelling branches (which you didn’t do, thank you very much) but the outcome is the same. Perhaps not a real alphabet but at least coded messages that get the meaning across Wink



Tewti!
i wondered if this would be used by any tribe or civilisation.
Do you maybe remember any other details from that documentary so i could search for it?

the continent, what was else in the documentary, language of the documentary, when and where it was sent, or anything else
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 06:59:40 am by 'eylan na'viyä » Logged

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« Reply #159 on: September 21, 2010, 09:50:34 pm »

--deleted--
complete list is some threads below
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 12:19:35 pm by 'eylan na'viyä » Logged

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« Reply #160 on: September 21, 2010, 09:53:39 pm »

unfortunately there seems to be a not only a limit for each post but also one for the thread.
you can look at the images in the gallery here:
http://forum.learnnavi.org/mgallery/?sa=album;id=103

Numbers
i also made examples for numbers but i some new ideas after taking the photos. i will make new ones later.

Mounting
These are all ways of how to mount leaves if they are not already in the right place that i found up to now.
they are also in the gallery:
http://forum.learnnavi.org/mgallery/?sa=album;id=103

I will try to make a comprehensive sheet when it everything is more complete and probably also add schematic images which will likely be clearer.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 10:09:10 pm by 'eylan na'viyä » Logged

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä
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« Reply #161 on: September 21, 2010, 10:19:45 pm »

The leaf-code idea reminds me of another race (and conlang)-- Kizinti. Like the Na`vi, the Kizinti are felinoid, but much more so. They look like ligers that walk upright.

Whenever a Kizinti would make a kill, they would mark some portion of it (that wasn't eaten right away) with their claws. Each Kizinti had their own pattern of claw marks. So, if another Kizinti saw some 'food', they would know whom it belongs to. Over time, this claw-mark system evolved into a written language. From this basic language, a more sophisticated script arose, and that is what they use today (They are a highly technological society with starships, etc.). But the claw-mark system is apparently still used for some things. Both are available as downloadable fonts, which you can use for simple transliteration. Sadly, the Kizinti language needs lots of work, and that is where I am going after I thoroughly master Na`vi.
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Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro eylan.falulukana@gmail.com
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« Reply #162 on: September 29, 2010, 11:31:16 am »

thanks for the insight ma `Eylan Ayfalulukanä.

Now i have images of all letters(except diphthongs) of the alphabet. I'm not completely happy with all of them yet but i think its ok for a first "evolutionary step". Anyway you have to play around with this a bit to find out how practical which letter is.
pdf: vulaluvur_alphabet.pdf
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 05:34:41 pm by 'eylan na'viyä » Logged

Tirea Aean
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« Reply #163 on: September 29, 2010, 11:35:11 am »

using pictures of leaves to write? ridiculous. XD (but interesting)
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« Reply #164 on: September 29, 2010, 11:53:37 am »

Fìkem si ayolo’ na’rìngä tompayä mì ’Rrta nìngay … Ke tsun ziverok slä tsalme’a fì’ut ’awlie fwa saronyul fayfne’upxaret txolìng fte eykivomum saronyur alahe fu suteru ta olo’ alahe tsenget a ultxa sivi fohu. Lu ’awsiteng fa tìngusop ayutraltsyìpit fu leykatem ayvulit (netrìp tsat ngal fìkem ke seiyi) slä tìkan lu tengfya.

This is actually done by rain forest tribes … I can’t remember where it was but I saw a documentary once where hunters left exactly these kind of messages to inform other hunters or people from another tribe where to meet. It also involved reshaping whole bushes or breaking/modelling branches (which you didn’t do, thank you very much) but the outcome is the same. Perhaps not a real alphabet but at least coded messages that get the meaning across Wink


Tewti!
i wondered if this would be used by any tribe or civilisation.
Do you maybe remember any other details from that documentary so i could search for it?

the continent, what was else in the documentary, language of the documentary, when and where it was sent, or anything else

I’m sorry, I don’t remember … I have a vague feeling that it was South America in the Amazon region but I’m really not sure. Oeru txoa livu.


BTW … this becomes more like a project in its own right. Perhaps you should think about opening your own thread to gain the recognition it deserves Wink
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 03:22:58 pm by Plumps » Logged



fwa fmi lu fwa flä – “to try is to succeed” || The Annotated Dictionary Project || oeyä pìlok
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