Kaltxì, Guest! Why don't you join our community?
Learn Na'vi Community
September 22, 2014, 10:29:25 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
Paul Frommer's
Language Workbook
News: The Web-based IRC client is back on the main LearnNavi.org web site. There is a link on the index page for it. Yay!
 
   Home   Staff Rules Gallery Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Allophony in Na'vi ('Oma Tireayä guide to translating loanwords)  (Read 2515 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
'Oma Tirea
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 50
Offline Offline

ToS Username: 'Oma tirea
Posts: 3873

Na'vi... sleru... rusti...


« on: June 22, 2010, 12:13:56 am »

When the sawtute came to Pandora, they were speaking nì'Ìnglìsì with a GA accent.  The Na'vi have decided to use some of the words of English taught to them by Grace Augustine, but there was one small problem: Na'vi doesn't have some of the phonemes that English has.

A possible allophony for consonants:
  • The three nasals [m], [n], [ŋ] remain the same, as do [j] and [w]
  • Any [ɫ] is lightened to [l]
  • [p], [t], and [k] remain the same, or they may become their ejective equivalents while [b], [d], and [g] become unaspirated [p], [t], and [k] respectively, not becoming ejective.  [g] in a syllable onset and after [ŋ] goes to [ŋ]*  What is certain is that p, t, and k in final position become either unreleased or ejective.
  • [f], [v], [s], [z], and [h] remain the same
  • [ʃ] and [ʒ] most likely go to [ɕ]/[sj] and [z] respecively
  • [ʧ] and [ʤ] go to [ʨ]/[ʦj]
  • [ɹ]/[ɻ] goes to [ɾ]
  • Not sure what they do about [θ] and [ð], as they could go three different ways.  Most likely they get stopped to [t].

A possible allophony for vowels:
  • [æ] stays the same, as does [ɛ], [ɪ] and [i]
  • [eː]/[eɪ] goes to [ɛj][/nobbc]
  • [ɑː] goes to [a], while [ɒ] goes to either [a] or [o]
  • [ʌ] goes to [a] or [u]/[ʊ]
  • [ɵʊ] and [ɔ] go to [o]
  • [ju] stays the same if possible, [ʊu]/[ɨu] goes to [u]
  • [ʊ]/[ɤ] goes to [u] (remember, [ʊ] is an allophone of [u] in medial position in Na'vi)
  • [ɔɪ]/[ɵɪ] goes to [o.i] or [o.ɪ], with a hiatus in between the two vowels
  • [ɜ]/[ə]/[ɨ̞] goes to [ɪ]
  • [ɹ̩]/[ɻ̩]/[ɚ]/[ɝ] goes to [r̩] if possible
  • [l̩] stays the same

As for legalization of phonotactics, two things can happen: resyllibification, and epethentic insertions of [ɪ], or more rarely, [ɛ].  Sometimes a word will have an ì on the end because it's necessary (e.g. Tsyìräfì).  This disappears in certain case markings, namely -ä, and sometimes -ur and -it (although the latter is unconfirmed).
 
Thoughts welcomed.

Eywa ngahu
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 12:22:01 am by 'Oma Tirea » Logged



ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!
kewnya txamew'itan
Moderator
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 65
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 3522


po a ke lu wew


« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2010, 02:12:19 am »

Why on earth would p, t and k become ejective? They'd probably just either become unaspirated or remain unapsirated and become a na'vi p, t, or k. b, d, and g don't always become the unvoiced and unaspirated stops we have in na'vi either, Frommer transliterated Galway and ngalwey txo oe zerok nìngay.

theta and eth would probably go to f and v, many people who speak English natively do that anyway and the sounds are more similar than s and z (although their point of articulation is a bit closer probably.

We know that {ʌ} becomes u not a from the na'vi word kun.

{ʊ} can stay the same in closed syllables as a u, remember that, tsun can be pronounced either [tsʊn] or [tsun]

{oj} doesn't exist in na'vi, they'd become {oɪ} (undiphthongised) instead.

{ɪ} is used like schwa in na'vi so it should replace it.






Also, ngeyä avatarìri sì signatureri, why do you use ejective s and ts, that just seems to be confusing. And 1500+ phonemes? That doesn't seem very plausible, how did you get them all?






edit: forgot to say that in GA tt, dd or sometimes just t is flapped so should be a na'vi r (examples are ladder, latter, water)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 04:18:58 pm by kemeoauniaea » Logged

Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's
'Oma Tirea
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 50
Offline Offline

ToS Username: 'Oma tirea
Posts: 3873

Na'vi... sleru... rusti...


« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2010, 01:54:30 pm »

Poltxe Oe: {ɜ}/{ə}/{ɨ̞} goes to {ɪ}.  Also, when I mention {oj} or {oɪ}, I am referring to both being undiphthongised, the latter being much more likely.

Ngaytxoa for any confusion, and Irayo nìtxan for the insight.

Why on earth would p, t and k become ejective? They'd probably just either become unaspirated or remain unapsirated and become a na'vi p, t, or k. b, d, and g don't always become the unvoiced and unaspirated stops we have in na'vi either, Frommer transliterated Galway and ngalwey txo oe zerok nìngay.


You have a point there.  {g} can sometimes go to {ŋ}.  And, if we are to create new English loanwords using the Na'vi phonemes, we need to stop using ejectives Wink


We know that {ʌ} becomes u not a from the na'vi word kun.


If you listen to how Jake says "alaksi" in the movie, it sounds more like {ʌlʌksi}.  It could be that the loanwords kun and kunsìp are more of an exception at this point, being only spelling pronounciations.  Besides, doesn't an {ʌ} sound closer to an {a} than an {u}?


Also, ngayä avatarìri sì sìngnatsurìri, why do you use ejective s and ts, that just seems to be confusing. And 1500+ phonemes? That doesn't seem very plausible, how did you get them all?




It's a non-standard addition, and obviously not all 1500+ phonemes are used in any Na'vi.  If this becomes confusing, I would recommend sticking to the standard Na'vi accent that Karyu Pawl set out for us.



edit: forgot to say that in GA tt, dd or sometimes just t is flapped so should be a na'vi r (examples are ladder, latter, water)

Right, but if the Na'vi have decided to pronounce Gunship like {kunsɪp} instead of {kansɪp}, wouldn't any words with a flapped tt or dd be pronounced {t} instead of {ɾ}?

Logged



ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!
kewnya txamew'itan
Moderator
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 65
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 3522


po a ke lu wew


« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2010, 04:18:50 pm »

Whether {ʌ} sounds nearer a or u could vary hugely from person to person, or from tawtute to na'vi, whether a flapped tt/dd is identical to an r or not, will not. Borrowed words with flapped tt should generally be transliterated as r.

Anyway, irayo for the clarifications.
Logged

Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's
'Oma Tirea
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 50
Offline Offline

ToS Username: 'Oma tirea
Posts: 3873

Na'vi... sleru... rusti...


« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2010, 06:42:34 pm »

Here's another thought of allophony, speaking of the intervocalic tt and dd: when a tt precedes an {ən} in words like button, it is usually pronounced something like {bʌ.ʔn̩} in GA.  Would Na'vi allophony keep the glottal stop here ({pa.ʔɪn}) or change it to a {t} ({pa.tɪn})?
Logged



ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!
omängum fra'uti
Moderator
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 127
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 3839


Na'vi's first grammar nazi


WWW
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2010, 01:26:06 am »

We know that {ʌ} becomes u not a from the na'vi word kun.
I would argue that it is becoming {ʊ} there not {u}, rather than making it a general rule "a becomes u".  It's marginally closer to {ʌ} than {a} in articulation, but I'd argue much closer in sound qualities.
Logged

Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!
kewnya txamew'itan
Moderator
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 65
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 3522


po a ke lu wew


« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2010, 02:34:49 am »

We know that {ʌ} becomes u not a from the na'vi word kun.
I would argue that it is becoming {ʊ} there not {u}, rather than making it a general rule "a becomes u".  It's marginally closer to {ʌ} than {a} in articulation, but I'd argue much closer in sound qualities.

I meant a na'vi (specifically closed syllable) u not IPA u, I guess I should have used angle brackets around it.

Here's another thought of allophony, speaking of the intervocalic tt and dd: when a tt precedes an {ən} in words like button, it is usually pronounced something like {bʌ.ʔn̩} in GA.  Would Na'vi allophony keep the glottal stop here ({pa.ʔɪn}) or change it to a {t} ({pa.tɪn})?

It depends how they encountered it, if they heard it from someone who was trying to teach them and was annunciating very clearly, they'd probably go for putìn (ignoring our dispute on whether it should be u or a), if they heard it from a grumbling technician who wasn't talking to them really and was mumbling then they might go for something more like pu'ìn (again ignoring the u/a dispute for now).
Logged

Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's
Kì'eyawn
Olo'eyktan
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 32
Offline Offline

United States United States

Posts: 1779


Oeru syaw "tigermind" kop.


« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2010, 09:19:14 am »

Most of this discussion is way over my non-linguist head, but i just wanted to point out that Karyu Pawl gave us doctor => toktor.  The two reasons this is important is 1) it shows neither t nor its voiced counterpart d becomes an ejective (although listen to the way Mo'at throws around ejectives in her English...), and 2) it's another example of vowels going in a direction we might not expect.  The way i say "doctor," the Na'vi would probably get *taktrr out of it; but somehow the Sawtute got them to say toktor instead.
Logged

eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...
Muzer
Palulukan Makto
*****

Karma: 10
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1348


« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2010, 09:21:23 am »

Not every person in the RDA will speak with an American accent - maybe a British guy (or some other dialect) taught them "doctor"? (Though I probably would have made it "tokter", "toktor" sounds very Doctor Who - "TOKTOR" Tongue).
Logged

[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive
kewnya txamew'itan
Moderator
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 65
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 3522


po a ke lu wew


« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2010, 09:27:36 am »

I think whoever was teaching them to say Doctor must have been Spanish-speaking which would pronounce it almost identically to the na'vi (albeit with a d not a t and a dental one at that) (and incidentally, not be used of a medical doctor, like the na'vi toktor) or a BrE-speaker who distinguishes between {ɑ} and {ɒ} which AmE does not. That said, if the film showed a representative sample of the staff that interacted with the na'vi that would be odd.

Not every person in the RDA will speak with an American accent - maybe a British guy (or some other dialect) taught them "doctor"? (Though I probably would have made it "tokter", "toktor" sounds very Doctor Who - "TOKTOR" Tongue).

With my British (RP) accent doctor would be rendered in na'vi most like toktrr though because instead of the or being a {ɔ} as you'd expect it's {ə} which given how it's been rendered in unofficial words (tsisìprrkrr comes to mind) would probably be rr, if it wasn't rr and was rendered as an o, you wouldn't expect the r to appear from a BrE speaker because most accents in the UK that an American would describe as British aren't rhotic.
Logged

Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's
Muzer
Palulukan Makto
*****

Karma: 10
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1348


« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2010, 09:38:33 am »

For me (British), if I pronounce it quickly the "or" sounds like /ə/ as you say, but if I pronounce it slowly and more carefully, as someone teaching the word surely would, it sounds like /ɜːɹ/ - maybe that's just me though.
Logged

[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive
kewnya txamew'itan
Moderator
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 65
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 3522


po a ke lu wew


« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2010, 09:42:46 am »

Whereabouts are you from if you're putting the r in? If you were saying it slowly, you might get the /ɜː(ɹ)/ which is even weirder if it goes to a na'vi <or>, <er> would be closer.
Logged

Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's
Muzer
Palulukan Makto
*****

Karma: 10
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1348


« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2010, 09:47:01 am »

I assumed the brackets mean optional in this case - is that correct?

I do get /ɜːɹ/ when pronouncing slowly and more deliberately.

You may have missed one thing I said:

(Though I probably would have made it "tokter", "toktor" sounds very Doctor Who - "TOKTOR" Tongue).


[On Doctor Who, a British sci-fi, the aliens often say "DOCTOR" with /ɔ/ (I think), in an amusing voice Tongue]
Logged

[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive
kewnya txamew'itan
Moderator
Palulukan Makto
*****
*

Karma: 65
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 3522


po a ke lu wew


« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2010, 09:51:00 am »

I assumed the brackets mean optional in this case - is that correct?

I do get /ɜːɹ/ when pronouncing slowly and more deliberately.

You may have missed one thing I said:

(Though I probably would have made it "tokter", "toktor" sounds very Doctor Who - "TOKTOR" Tongue).


1. sran

2. Odd, I'd've (why don't people use that contraction more often) thought the /ɹ/ would only come in if you speak a rhotic accent.

3. No, I got that, I was just responding to the other part of your post.

[On Doctor Who, a British sci-fi, the aliens often say "DOCTOR" with /ɔ/ (I think), in an amusing voice Tongue]
Logged

Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's
Muzer
Palulukan Makto
*****

Karma: 10
Offline Offline

United Kingdom United Kingdom

Posts: 1348


« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2010, 10:04:12 am »

As I've mentioned in the past, my family are from all over the place, so I've got a very weird mix of accents from all around Britain (I pronounce tongue as /tɒŋ/ or sometimes even /tɒŋg/ for example (I think I got the vowel right there - if not, I meant the o in British "hot" or "cot"), which is quite a northern thing, but much of the rest of my accent is southern (grass is /gɹɑːs/).

I certainly pronounce all "ng"s in the middle of words, regardless of whether the ng would be at the end if you removed the suffixes or not, as /ŋg/ - so singer and finger rhyme for me, which according to Wikipedia is not in many English dialects at all.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 10:06:46 am by Muzer » Logged

[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines

Powered by SMF | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC | Sitemap | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, or the Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Avatar Day! | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Navilator, the Na'vi Translator | Na'viteri

Also check out the Dothraki language from Game of Thrones: Dothraki | Dictionary | Dothraki Wiki

Custom video game and anime Piano Transcriptions - professional piano arrangements!
Love a cappella? Learn more on the a cappella wiki: Map | Male a cappella groups | Female a cappella groups and more.