Astral Projection: Gateway to Other Worlds

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[Tsawla Eltu Tsamsiyu]

What if Astral Projection is a spiritual term for the act of Lucid Dreaming? In some cases I've read that AP is projecting your mind into a "cached real world", from whence I derived my idea stated earlier, and that LD can be used to access such a state, also from where I got the idea aforementioned that AP is deeper than LD. And how do we know how much information the different parts of the brain actually contain? A Sony Playstation memory card used to only hold 8mb and now there are memory cards (considerably smaller) that can hold up to 2Tb. What if the brain functions the same way? What if the deeper we delve the more we discover, as seems to be the case.

Back to my main point, what if they're the same? There is evidence that supports this. Whilst I cannot cite them at the moment, it would stand to reason that AP is just another form of LD at least. I'm pretty sure (Tsyal Maktoyu said this earlier) you can do everything in an LD that you can if you were to AP. I'm still new to the subject and haven't much to speculate on. It IS true, however, that both sides have decent arguments. I reason that in an LD, you may be more susceptible to the effects of morphic fields (I believe I have this right) and their tendencies to transmit unconscious thoughts, thereby allowing you access not only to your own summoned constructs, but collective ones generated by you and strengthened by the brain power of those around you. While you may get more information from an LD, it may be that you can get a better experience through AP. I've mainly focused on AP while only occasionally looking at LD.

For all I know, everything about AP could be completely wrong, but I chose to believe in it over LD. I also choose to believe that the two are inherently connected in some way, thus making them similar, if not in fact the same. Many people have the same dreams, though not exactly the same they are at least similar (falling, school related, leaving your body, etc.). Some cultures believed that there are different bodies that we inhabit, one of them being the Astral body. As long as there has been the concept of the Astral body, so too has there been the concept of Astral Projection (which usually occurs when you enter a controlled sleep state, much like LD). But someone who didn't know about AP would call the experience a Lucid Dream. So I propose that while the two may seem very different, they are also very much the same. I would like to hear more about Lucid Dreaming, as it may be easier than Projection (as I have been having trouble with that).

I, too, agree with the both of you to an extent, but when it all comes down to it, I think its the belief that matters most. You have to choose which side is best for you. I won't know until I've accomplished both and, as usual, I choose the harder one first. How do I know what anyone says is true? I do not. I must see for myself. I started this thread to try and end the debating of where would be the best place to start the Tribe, how we should go about doing so and many other, albeit unrelated, questions of my own that need answering. I now see that, though I believed AP was the best choice at the time, there are many other, possibly better, ways to go about accomplishing my task. I would like to thank both of you for your valuable input and am eagerly awaiting your responses and future discussions.

[Tsyal Maktoyu]

TBH studying "fringe" science (trying to avoid calling this pseudoscience, because if there really is study being done, it's not really pseudo anymore! ) has always been taboo. From what I could tell, the experiment involving dream telepathy and the Christian portrait was pretty scientifically executed. However, in the scientific community, studying these things that have been (IMO) wrongly lumped all into "New Age mumbo-jumbo" at all tends to raise eyebrows and leads to the experimenters being marginalized or denegrated. Maybe if fringe scientists could start getting grants and the like more solid studies will start coming out.

It's a bit sad, really. Sometimes scientists can be just as closed-minded as the competition.

[Ithisa Kíranem]

I meant that the research at lucidity.com is NOT pseudoscience. It is real science and I hope it gets accepted!

I'm not in any way against you. I'm just saying that the research done at DreamViews and the countless self-help books are pseudoscience. I definitely agree that lucidity.com research is not pseudoscience. It isn't even fringe science. AFAIK its research is nearly always accepted by the psychophysiology community.

[Tsyal Maktoyu]

Yeah, I was referring to Lucidity.com. But I'm just saying, when scientific study is done to try to prove the existence of OBEs or dream telepathy/shared dreaming, it's always bound to raise a few eyebrows in the scientific community, and the researcher is usually left with an uphill battle to try to get the community to recognize their efforts or write them off as nuts. It's a taboo subject. Research on the other hand that tries to disprove OBEs and such are a lot more easily accepted in the community.

At least, that's the impression I get when I've studied this stuff. It seems like there's definitely a double standard in this field, and I think it's the taboo factor doing that.

[Clarke]

[Ithisa Kíranem]

@Tsayl Maktoyu

That's what Big Pseudoscience wants you to believe (that scientists have double standards), but it isn't the truth. As long as the evidence is sound and solid you can get it accepted. There are quite a few studies supporting telepathy and such in major scientific journals.

However, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Telepathy, which is hard to imagine because air doesn't conduct neural connections, is an extraordinary claim. A few percent more correct above random guessing is not extraordinary evidence. Before Big Pseudoscience jumps out with the Copernicus thing, let me make it clear. Copernicus DID make an extraordinary claim, however, it was backed with EXTRAORDINARY evidence. The planets behave EXACTLY as Copernicus predicted them, and every diversion from the prediction of Aristotle's theories was completely written in the equations of Copernicus. Copernicus did not say, "Hey, my prediction of the planet's motion was WAY better than random guessing!"

The same thing is to be said of Einstein's relativity. Sure, at first quite a few people rejected the idea, but still the community as a whole grudgingly welcomed the theory because it had extraordinary evidence.

In the same way, lucidity.com's research is actually quite accepted by the scientific community because it has evidence. But to end the debate you need extraordinary evidence, which unfortunately doesn't exist for OBEs.

P.S. I'm sure if humans can tsaheyl si with each other then telepathy would be much easier to explain  

[Nìmwey]

For Eywas sake, here I am bravely trying to get the project started again, and you are all just talking about dreaming. (No offense.)

[Ithisa Kíranem]

THat was what I thought. A tribe and astral projection? How's that related? Are you trying to set up an uniltaron ritual for the tribe? 

[Tsyal Maktoyu]

I was going to rebut, but I agree, let's get this topic back on the tracks.

Anyway, yeah, this does sound like an interesting ritual. At first this thread, it seems, was more about individual astral projection, but I could see it becoming that.

[Tsawla Eltu Tsamsiyu]

While that most CERTAINLY was NOT the intended purpose of this thread (and I'm quite surprised by the sudden change in direction), I am pleased with this development. Perhaps we could make it a ritual. Perhaps part of Unìltaron?

[Tsyal Maktoyu]

The only problem I see is that this takes a lot of training (both LDing and Astral Projection). Maybe we can start teaching people early?

[Tsawla Eltu Tsamsiyu]

I think we (or you guys) could form some sort of group and when we (or you guys) all feel that we (or you guys) are ready to teach we (or you guys) could have a skype meeting/class/seminar thing. I guess. Where we (or you guys) could teach people before the Tribe actually gets going. So we have time, but you're right, it DOES take a lot of training.

[Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite]

I can, if you all would like, lead in rituals if we are to undergo them. I am Wiccan, so I have a good amount of knowledge in practicing ritual. however, I do not have experience in astral projection because I have a hard time meditating.

if we want to do this, we must all practice meditating. we can most certainly wait until we are all together to do this; but if we want it to be successful, we should probably start practicing now. and at least two or three times a day; at first, meditate for five minutes, then ten, then 20, and etcetera. or don't even keep track of time; but at the beginning, start out slow (meaning meditation for a short amount of time) and then build up until you can meditate for half an hour+

so if you would like I can lead in ritual; not just for this particular reason, too. if we are to be 'Na'vi', I am guessing a lot of you may want to follow and practice the spiritual beliefs of Eywa? if so, I may be one of the most knowledgeable and experienced. we also must use certain things as in herbs, incense, oils, stones/minerals, etcetera. s

[Tsawla Eltu Tsamsiyu]

This is a fact. Spirituality will play a key role in the development and continuation of our goals, namely Tribal functions. Meditation is important to me as I am a Jedi, so I try to meditate for at least 15 minutes a day and for 30 minutes once a week. It is a beneficial practice that will help solve many problems. The use of herbs, incense/oils, stones/minerals, etc., is a wonderful idea. I, too, am knowledgeable, but am lacking in the experience department. Someone who could "lead" in rituals would be most beneficial. Is there a thread for this kind of stuff? Its cool to have it here, but this not the perfect thread for it... Unless we want it to be! But for the sake of clarity, we should find/start a thread for this discussion. I think more people would participate in this new topic if it WERE a new topic, so to speak.

[Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite]

o.O I didn't know 'Jedi' was a religion.