Author Topic: T-Shirt Design  (Read 11896 times)

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Offline Prrton

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2012, 12:37:50 am »

Here's what I have for my core design at this point.

Feedback appreciated.

I changed the subtitle to "Now a part of the clan." I'd also like feedback on that. Is it better that it be 'part of the Na’vi' as it is in the film?

This design is for 3 colors on white.

I'll do the design for printing on back material after I have feedback.

You can 'right-click' directly on the image to see a larger version. It's a PNG.

Thx.




Offline hì'ia tuté

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2012, 02:24:21 am »
I think it's great!  :D 8)

Offline Nosi'em Ikranay

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2012, 02:47:58 am »
I think it's very nice, but......why do they all appear to be male?

Offline hì'ia tuté

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2012, 04:17:38 am »
I think it's very nice, but......why do they all appear to be male?

*whispers* my guess would be it is hard to make boobs from an aerial view...

Offline Nosi'em Ikranay

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2012, 08:54:59 am »
I think it's very nice, but......why do they all appear to be male?

*whispers* my guess would be it is hard to make boobs from an aerial view...

I'd think it might be fairly easy... slightly smaller physique, aerial view of pecs more rounded with a tad more cleavage, with feathers or bib necklace, female hair style...perhaps the addition of tsahìk adornments like Mo'at was wearing, or the shaman bundle Neytiri carried? I'm not an artist, but by the looks of the great job Prrton has already done, I think he's got the chops.

Just sayin'.

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2012, 11:13:05 am »
I think it's very nice, but......why do they all appear to be male?

*whispers* my guess would be it is hard to make boobs from an aerial view...

I'd think it might be fairly easy... slightly smaller physique, aerial view of pecs more rounded with a tad more cleavage, with feathers or bib necklace, female hair style...perhaps the addition of tsahìk adornments like Mo'at was wearing, or the shaman bundle Neytiri carried? I'm not an artist, but by the looks of the great job Prrton has already done, I think he's got the chops.

Just sayin'.

yeah... I'm no artist either, I was just being silly. ;)

Offline Prrton

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2012, 11:16:49 am »
Almost all of the gender features that are very prominent in humans are missing in the Na’vi.

They are ALL thin and muscled.
The womens' chests are not particularly large. They have athletic breasts as a general rule.

The only characteristics that I can render from an arial view that are definitely noticeable as feminine for Na’vi (without making them look either human or horribly emaciated) is to:

(1) change their hair—meaning give them lots more of it.
(2) Make their arms thinner (with fewer bumps=less muscle).
(3) Make sure that blue does not show overtly where their boobs would be.

Of these, only the (1) hair and (2) arms approach is really true to how the Na’vi actually appear in the film.

Looking at the film again, It seems like the animators at Weta went to a great deal of effort to make Neytiri and Mo’at very feminine. The rest of the women and men overall have a very similar look. The womens’ breasts are generally covered by their hair. From above, I think it would be very difficult to tell them apart.

Of the figures already in the illustration, there are 3 whom I consider to be overtly female. One of those is more "stocky" than the other two. Can you find them?

If people want me to spend time to change the sex of the figures (i.e. make more of them distinctly female), I need from those providing feedback:

A) Examples of Na’vi from the film (who are not Mo’at and Neytiri) who look very feminine (screen frames posted here)
B) The ratio of males to females (or female to male if you prefer) that should be represented in this design.

Christine Schreyer's research shows that the (human) community is roughly 25% female and 75% male. If this is to identify purely with the film then presumably 50/50.

It is not possible for me to render something with the delicacy of a fkxile (bib necklace) at the resolution of T-shirt screen printing spot colors. The best I can do is just make sure that their breasts are covered by hair or the brown color (or both).

In this ceremonial context, both men and women of the Na’vi seems to wear feathers, beads, and other adornments equally. Having feathers in the hair more for women than men is an artificially biased (human mindset) way to make a differentiation in this context in my opinion.

If I draw an ’are (like Mo’at's cape/poncho) on one or more of the characters, it will significantly change the volume (size) of that character and (in my feeling) throw off balance of the "web" pattern created by the laying on of hands. I’ve tried it already.

Height is irrelevant and that is one of the key male/female differentiators in the film for women vs. men. Faces are also irrelevant. That's the other.

Thanks for the feedback.

If this turns into 100% "design by committee," I probably won't have the patience for it, but I'm very happy to have those who care respond to my points A) and B) above and I'm hopeful that I'll be able to deliver something worthy of the final competition.

Please keep in mind that this is a t-shirt. I'm doubtful that most people seeing it would pay much more attention than: from a distance, what's that? and then from up close; Oh, it's people. That said, I too am sensitive to it being "overly bromantic" somehow, so I don't want anyone feeling "Oh, it's all dudes." There is a tradeoff, though in keeping the figures true to the Na’vi body morphology, vs. making a specific ratio of them "comfortably female" to human eyes. As a designer I'm not comfortable giving all the women large chests and buttocks that that are large enough to appear from this perspective. It's not true to the characters in the film.

PS: A note on tails. I tried adding them. It seemed problematic to me (primarily from a visual perspective). My assumption for this viewing angle is that in calm reverence for the ceremony, everyone's tail is just hanging directly down and is therefore unseen.



« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 05:13:42 pm by Prrton »

Offline Reykoveyzä te Werufalä Haflak'ite

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2012, 01:13:42 pm »
i dont think its a problem. i thought that some of the characters were female when i looked at the design straight off, and i think its awesome! you shouldnt change it at all (except perhaps 'clan' back to 'na'vi' - i liked that better). you're right about the figures of the Na'vi being mainly anodrogynous, particularly from above.

we shouldnt nitpick here - prrton's done an amazing job, and i would wear that t-shirt tomorrow if i could  ;D
Irayo, ma frapo, ma oeyä smuke sì ma oeyä smukan.
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Offline mikkowilson

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2012, 02:39:48 pm »
That is pretty fantastic.

Can we see that on a shirt base. Are you thinking front, back, size?

 - Mikko
Mikko Wilson
Juneau, Alaska, USA
[email protected] - www.mikkowilson.com - +1 (907) 321-8387

Offline Seze Mune

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2012, 03:20:40 pm »
To answer Prrton's questions, I see two Na'vi on the periphery who might be female.  One can be identified at about 11 o'clock by the earrings, and one at about 2 o'clock, mostly by the hair.  The only other one which I am tentative about is in the middle at the 6 o'clock position...am I right about that one?  The hair is what throws me off that one for some reason.

I think you've done a great job, ma Prrton.  No reason why we shouldn't go with it. 

Will these be available for purchase from the website, or will these be only for those attending?

Offline Prrton

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2012, 04:22:10 pm »
That is pretty fantastic.

Can we see that on a shirt base. Are you thinking front, back, size?

 - Mikko

Some people who are not actually able to go to Seattle have expressed an interest in getting shirts. That leads me to the question:

What if there are 4 variations?

1) White with "now a member" on the front and "AvatarMeet 2012: Uniting the Clans" on the back.
2) White with "now a member" on the front only
3) Black with "now a member" on the front and "AvatarMeet 2012: Uniting the Clans" on the back.
4) Black with "now a member" on the front only

The main reason to do one that does NOT have the AvatarMeet logo (on the back) is to save (some amount of printing cost) for those who don't actually attend. I don't know about any ideas about supposed "exclusivity" of this. Does one HAVE TO be in Seattle to get one?? I'm not a part of (and don't want to be a part of) any discussion like that.

The artwork will have to be optimized for a black field (shirt material) vs. this white-focused version you see above.

That leads me to the NEXT question (again):

What about the actual numbers of inks to be used for the screen prints?

I feel that on black, the design could work in one color (a blue base with 3 screens of for example 100%, 50%, and 25%). However this will require feedback from the printer. I don't feel that a single color design would work very well on white.

Here is the base design (still reading "member of the CLAN" but that's easy to change) on black and white for males and females.



The CHEAPEST thing to do would be to design it to go on BLACK in ONE BLUE INK. I have no idea what people want to spend per shirt.

To answer Prrton's questions, I see two Na'vi on the periphery who might be female.  One can be identified at about 11 o'clock by the earrings, and one at about 2 o'clock, mostly by the hair.  The only other one which I am tentative about is in the middle at the 6 o'clock position...am I right about that one?  The hair is what throws me off that one for some reason.

I think you've done a great job, ma Prrton.  No reason why we shouldn't go with it.  

Will these be available for purchase from the website, or will these be only for those attending?

Ma Seze. Ngaru tìyawr. These are the 3 individuals who were intentionally designed to look more female. The tentative one looks more female because she has pulled her queue (tswin) to the front. This is a more female behavior, as opposed to overt LOOK. Her arms are also slightly thinner.

I don't know anything at all about the PRODUCTION or AVAILABILITY of the shirts. I'm simply volunteering to provide artwork (to the level required by the printing vendor that will eventually be selected) as a function of this call for candidates.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Thank you, ma Frapo, who has been complementary. I really am pleased that many of you seem supportive of this design approach.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 05:01:58 pm by Prrton »

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2012, 06:19:18 pm »
I am with those who say that the design is fine as-is. As this is a depiction of a cerenony that involves all the Na'vi people, ones' sex is not important. And because there is not a lot of sexual dimorphism in the Na'vi, there is no need to accentuate it in a piece of art like this. The message of the image will be clear to anyone who has seen the movie.

Tìkangkem atxantsan, ma Prrton!

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Offline Nosi'em Ikranay

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2012, 06:51:28 pm »
I'm really sorry, ma Prrton, that my simple question seemed viewed as an affront.  Truly, I never meant it that way.  I guess I don't have an eye for the detail that many others do, and I salute you for anticipating the question and making the design reflect a few females as well.  It is a handsome and meaningful design.

If it's at all valuable to know what I was thinking, all I can say is that as a female, I would be happier wearing a Clan shirt which made me feel included especially since that is the intent of becoming One of the People.  I am aware now that this is just me, but a shirt which seemed to depict more of a male bonding event only would not help me feel like I was One of the People.  Now I know I need not feel that way.

You took a lot of time to carefully point out your design to me, and some of the difficulties you had to address during its development.  You were kind to do so, and I very much appreciate it.

Again, I am sorry if I offended as it seems I did.  Please forgive me.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 06:55:10 pm by Nosi'em Ikranay »

Offline Prrton

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2012, 07:44:04 pm »
I'm really sorry, ma Prrton, that my simple question seemed viewed as an affront.  Truly, I never meant it that way.  I guess I don't have an eye for the detail that many others do, and I salute you for anticipating the question and making the design reflect a few females as well.  It is a handsome and meaningful design.

If it's at all valuable to know what I was thinking, all I can say is that as a female, I would be happier wearing a Clan shirt which made me feel included especially since that is the intent of becoming One of the People.  I am aware now that this is just me, but a shirt which seemed to depict more of a male bonding event only would not help me feel like I was One of the People.  Now I know I need not feel that way.

You took a lot of time to carefully point out your design to me, and some of the difficulties you had to address during its development.  You were kind to do so, and I very much appreciate it.

Again, I am sorry if I offended as it seems I did.  Please forgive me.

Ma Nosi’em,

There's absolutely nothing to apologise for. I’M sorry if my response came across as curt or harsh in some way. If anything, I think what you're getting is my frustration with the fact that it's just HARD with this design to have the tops of peoples’ heads call out, "I'm male" or "I'm female." Unfortunately, boobs and soft faces cannot come to the rescue in this case.

The MAIN way to make the figures look unambiguously female is to give them lots of hair falling all over the place (in front and back). When men have long hair, they tend to do everything they can to get it away from their faces. The problem with that "waterfall" approach is that it creates a "visual hole" in the pattern of the connectedness (especially on a black background) when the pattern is seen from far away. You can see that in the mock-ups. The situation is just an ARTIFACT of the design limitations.

It is not difficult for me to have more of queues go to the front. Men are much less likely to "walk around" that way.

I am one of the MOST sensitive people in the community to gender issues and I'm happy to change the design to make you and all of the rest of the female members of the community feel as welcome as possible. It's just really hard to do it visually with the parameters I have to work with and I don't know if the design should mimic the community membership more or the Omaticaya clan more.

Offline Nosi'em Ikranay

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2012, 08:41:31 pm »
Ma Prrton,

Thank you for the kindness in your reply.  :)

I like your design as-is.

If you are considering a minor tweak, it makes some sense to reflect Christine Schreyer's findings for this community, at roughly 25% to 75% because it indirectly references the (cultural  ;) ) role of Learn Na'vi in the event.  But that's only if you choose to. 

The design is really striking as it is, and I can only hope that some day I will be the proud owner of one of those shirts.  :D

Offline Prrton

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2012, 10:44:41 pm »
Ma Prrton,

Thank you for the kindness in your reply.  :)

I like your design as-is.

If you are considering a minor tweak, it makes some sense to reflect Christine Schreyer's findings for this community, at roughly 25% to 75% because it indirectly references the (cultural  ;) ) role of Learn Na'vi in the event.  But that's only if you choose to. 

The design is really striking as it is, and I can only hope that some day I will be the proud owner of one of those shirts.  :D

That's 3~4 more women. I will gladly agree to 'add' that many. BUT, I cannot guarantee that they will read as overtly "feminine" in everyone's interpretation.

Deal?  ;)

I won't do this until the discussion about colors and variations has settled down, though.

Thanks for engaging in the process!


Offline Ateyo Te Syaksyuk

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2012, 08:08:44 am »
I too, am pleased with the design as it stands.
Printed on black, it would be very striking.
As for the statement, NOW A MEMBER
That is counter productive in my opinion
and seems to IMPLY that one needs to pay admission
  to qualify as a MEMBER of the clan.
Whether one attends the Clan Meet-Up or not, we are all
part of the "CLAN".
I hope that I am not making a disparaging remark.
Perhaps if we indicated ATTENDEE (of the Meetup)
rather than MEMBER I would feel differently.
I mean no offense.
I like that some of the images reveal male pattern baldness!
I noticed the female at two o'clock, and would prefer to see more
females represented, but I would proudly wear that shirt as it stands.
Ateyo Te Syaksyuk

Offline Prrton

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2012, 11:50:45 am »
I too, am pleased with the design as it stands.
Printed on black, it would be very striking.
As for the statement, NOW A MEMBER
That is counter productive in my opinion
and seems to IMPLY that one needs to pay admission
  to qualify as a MEMBER of the clan.
Whether one attends the Clan Meet-Up or not, we are all
part of the "CLAN".
I hope that I am not making a disparaging remark.
Perhaps if we indicated ATTENDEE (of the Meetup)
rather than MEMBER I would feel differently.
I mean no offense.
I like that some of the images reveal male pattern baldness!
I noticed the female at two o'clock, and would prefer to see more
females represented, but I would proudly wear that shirt as it stands.
Ateyo Te Syaksyuk

Ma Ateyo, kaltxì

The tagline is not about participation in the meet up per se, at least in my mind. It references the image and the line from the film.

I'm throwing the word hapxì around as "member" rather liberally. Technically, it's "part." The word for "member" is hapxìtu. But, there is no currency among the Na’vi (that we know of) so the idea of 'paying for membership' really doesn't seem like a concern to me for this conceptually. The distinction between the semantics of "part" vs. "member" when referring to an individual in a society free of commerce is quite "blurry" for me personally.  ;)

Nobody is expressing support for using the word olo’, so in the final I'm planning on changing the line back to:

  Na’viyä hapxì luyu set

"Now a part of the Na’vi (honorably; properly; formally)."

I also think that black shirts look nice.

The final options will be based on what the AvatarMeet organizers come up with for printing and purchasing plans (assuming that this is still the design that the majority wants when the voting takes place, of course).

Thanks for your feedback.


Offline Alan

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2012, 03:02:23 pm »
Afraid I've been lurking in the Pandoran undergrowth following this thread and you know what?  I kinda like it.  Reminds me what's waiting out there....when I get to Seattle.

I do have one suggestion, and feel free to tell me to talk a long walk off a short pier, but I was wondering if the text might be:

'Awa olo'

'One Clan'.  The reason for this is simply because over the past two and a bit years (is it that long?!), I have found that despite there being multiple forums for Avatar, we all 'know' each other, we are all like one family, regardless of country or background.  Coming together in Seattle later this year, if it is anything like last year, will be an amazing experience for all of us and we will be 'One Clan'.

Well....that's my little thought.

Alan....*disappears back into the Pandoran undergrowth...

Offline Nosi'em Ikranay

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Re: T-Shirt Design
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2012, 03:31:52 pm »
Ma Prrton,

Thank you for the kindness in your reply.  :)

I like your design as-is.

If you are considering a minor tweak, it makes some sense to reflect Christine Schreyer's findings for this community, at roughly 25% to 75% because it indirectly references the (cultural  ;) ) role of Learn Na'vi in the event.  But that's only if you choose to. 

The design is really striking as it is, and I can only hope that some day I will be the proud owner of one of those shirts.  :D

That's 3~4 more women. I will gladly agree to 'add' that many. BUT, I cannot guarantee that they will read as overtly "feminine" in everyone's interpretation.

Deal?  ;)

I won't do this until the discussion about colors and variations has settled down, though.

Thanks for engaging in the process!



Ngaru tsulfä, ma Prrton.   :D  Deal, so long as you know that I am content with your choices.  I enjoy the way you think as you're putting all of this together.  If I haven't said it before, then I will say it now: Eywa lrrtok soli krra nga slolu hapxìtu Na'viyä ayoengä.

 

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