Author Topic: 'to' with the genitive?  (Read 1082 times)

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Offline Wllìm

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'to' with the genitive?
« on: January 04, 2016, 03:44:23 pm »
This came up during the Lerngruppe, the weekly German Na'vi class on TeamSpeak, and we couldn't reach an answer. Furia vingkap fì'ut, irayo ma Tanri :)

Consider the following sentence:

Neytiriyä pa'li to Tsu'teyä pa'li lu win.
"Neytiri's pa'li than Tsu'tey's pa'li is faster."
Neytiri's pa'li is faster than Tsu'tey's pa'li.

Can we also say:

Neytiriyä to Tsu'teyä pa'li lu win.
"Neytiri's than Tsu'tey's pa'li is faster."
Neytiri's pa'li is faster than Tsu'tey's pa'li.

In other words, can to be used with the genitive? Does anyone know of examples showing this usage?

Some remarks:
  • In Horen leNa'vi, section 6.2.7 is about to, but nothing is said about with which cases it is possible. (Interestingly enough, Horen doesn't even say or give examples of cases other than the subjective; indeed, until a year or so I used to think that only the subjective would be possible with to.)

  • With we can say

    Neytiriyä sì Tsu'teyä pa'li lu win.
    Neytiri's and Tsu'tey's pa'li(s) is / are (?) fast.

    So if to indeed behaves like , as is often said, then Neytiriyä to Tsu'teyä pa'li should also be possible.

    (Interesting side-question: if we say Neytiri's and Tsu'tey's pa'li do we mean one pa'li associated with both Neytiri and Tsu'tey, or two pa'lis? Maybe this is ambiguous?)

  • Of course, the same question is also of interest for other cases: to with the dative? Or even the topical?
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Offline Eana Unil

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2016, 04:06:36 pm »
I wouldn't see a reason why we couldn't.  :-\ ??? But that's just my opinion, doesn't have to be correct :)

My pa'li is faster than yours.
Mein Pa'li ist schneller als deins.
Oeyä pa'li to ngeyä lu win.

I see no problem there  ???
Using pum would look like a bit too much / unnecessary here imho.


Topical could maybe be like
Pa'liri oeyä to ngeyä lu win.
but it kinda sounds wrong to me. Or maybe I'm just not used to it, but I kinda like it!


Maybe it would be best to wait for other opinions and/or ask Karyu Pawl.


Tìsung; too bad that I've missed Lerngruppe today, but I just dropped dead on my couch after I got home and couldn't move until I realized it's 10:30 pm already. T_T

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2016, 04:16:24 pm »
Quote
Adjective comparatives and superlatives (big, bigger, biggest) are marked with the particle to, which, like an adposition, may come before the noun compared to or be enclitic on it.
What do you compare? The possessor or the possessee?
Well, what do you think?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 04:20:53 pm by Vawmataw »
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2016, 04:26:01 pm »
That's interesting.... But <genitive> to <genetive> X sounds and looks weird for me, somehow.

As far as I understood the role of to, it is used mainly to compare X with Y, and if X is the same as Y, I would use pum to avoid repetition of the same word/object like:

Neytiriyä pa'li to Tsu'teyä pum lu win.
Neytiri's pa'li than Tsu'tey's one is faster.
Neytiri's pa'li is faster than Tsu'tey's one.

Quote
So if to indeed behaves like sì, as is often said, then Neytiriyä to Tsu'teyä pa'li should also be possible.
=/= to

lists/connects words, to compares words.
[Neytiriyä sì Tsu'teyä] pa'li lu win.
but
[Neytiriyä] to [Tsu'teyä pa'li] lu win.
makes not much sense... because, Neytiri's <what?> is faster than Tsu'tey's pa'li

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2016, 04:37:49 pm »
What can replace a noun? A pronoun!

Mein Pa'li ist schneller als deins.
What is deins? A pronoun. What does it replace? Pa'li.

Oeyä pa'li to ngeyä lu win.
What is ngeyä? A pronoun. What does it replace? Nothing.

Quote
The genitive can be used predicatively, as in fìtseng lu awngeyä this place is ours. However, the prop noun pum possession, thing possessed is more often used, kelku ngeyä lu tsawl; pum oeyä lu hì’i your house is large; mine is small.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 04:49:43 pm by Vawmataw »
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Offline Eana Unil

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2016, 04:46:20 pm »
Oel tse'a kemit a soli nga tsatseng ;) But ngeyä is a possessive pronoun, kefyak? ???

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2016, 04:48:23 pm »
Oel tse'a kemit a soli nga tsatseng ;) But ngeyä is a possessive pronoun, kefyak? ???
Yes, but what does it replace?
Edit: Read carefully. :)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 04:57:05 pm by Vawmataw »
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Offline Eana Unil

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2016, 04:50:04 pm »
Maybe I'm thinking too german-ish or english-ish here, but for me it replaces pa'li, but if it needs to be that literal, pum or the original noun would be needed. What I already said in my first post ^^

Edit: I did. Several times.

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2016, 04:51:55 pm »
But what if it was Neytiriyä, Tsu'teyä, olo'eyktanä, 'evengä, etc.? These are nouns (or names).

Note: I'm not 200% sure about the grammar rule and Koren 6.2.5.6.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 04:57:36 pm by Vawmataw »
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Offline Eana Unil

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2016, 05:49:49 pm »
Still same for me ??? Context is key here for me, though. Since we're talking about pa'li in one comparison, and not pa'li to kelku or ikran to toruk... that would indeed be problematic.
Also, we have your/yours // dein/deins, but only ngeyä (possessive determiner vs. possessive pronoun) ??? If ngeyä can work as determiner AND pronoun, I see even fewer problems with this.
Grammar can be confusing at times ^^ Would love to hear moAr opinions on this.

Offline Vawmataw

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2016, 05:52:11 pm »
Would love to hear moAr opinions on this.
I will do this too.
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2016, 07:30:09 pm »
Quote
Mein Pa'li ist schneller als deins.
What is deins? A pronoun. What does it replace? Pa'li.
The problem is, "deins" is a contraction of "dein Eines" ~ "your one" = yours = pum ngeyä...if I am not mistaken.

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Offline Eana Unil

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2016, 01:09:20 am »
I just know that deins is a flectional version of dein and that's about it. :-\

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2016, 07:51:43 am »
Quote
Mein Pa'li ist schneller als deins.
What is deins? A pronoun. What does it replace? Pa'li.
The problem is, "deins" is a contraction of "dein Eines" ~ "your one" = yours = pum ngeyä...if I am not mistaken.

This. We use pum in this case in Na'vi :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2016, 11:29:39 am »
The more I think about it, the more I think there should be pum for it... (just more detailed thoughts)

Let's start with this example:
Fìpa'li lu ngeyä. = This direhore is yours.
^This example has the same pattern as "fìtseng lu awngeyä." ~ "This place is our(s)." (it was used in the movie) and this sentence just dropped/skipped pum. By context, one already know what it means, this place is the place that belongs to us. Perhaps, saying X lu pronoun+GEN is somehow idiomatic...

Thinking about this example:
Oeyä pa'li to ngeyä pa'li lu win.
lit.: My direhorse is in comparisson to your direhorse faster.

The standard translation would be:
My direhorse is faster than your direhorse.

But the most common way in daily speech would be this:
My direhorse is faster than yours.

So, translating the short one back to Na'vi, we will get:
Oeyä pa'li to pum ngeyä lu win.
This is, ihmo, a very valid translation and almost everybody will understand even if we are going to interchange the compared objects:
Pum oeyä to pa'li ngeyä lu win. = Mine [my one] is faster than your direhorse.

Now, the "problematic" version by dropping pum:
Oeyä pa'li to ngeyä lu win. = lit.: My direhorse is in comparisson to your ?? faster.
^translating that literally make not much sense, but the majority would translate it "automatically" as:
lit.: My direhorse is in comparisson to yours faster.
...and less literally: My direhorse is faster than yours.

Interstingly, an english speaker or german speaker will automatically include a dummy word inside of the genetive pronoun as in yours, mine, ours etc. Why not in Na'vi?

Also the question occures, can we use the genitive case of a pronoun as a possessive pronoun such as mine, yours, ours etc that is, etymologically, a contraction of genitive case of a pronoun plus the dummy word "one" in english (which is in Na'vi usually genitive case of the pronoun plus the dummy word pum)?

This question should go to Pawl, if necessary, but I think, in Na'vi it should be <pronoun+GEN> + pum.

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Offline Plumps

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2016, 04:14:43 pm »
Thinking about it since Tanri brought up this interesting question yesterday, by now I think it’s not possible … or at least not good or clear Na’vi.

As Wllìm already hinted at, it’s because of the compared thing… Taking this from the perspective we have (from the last listening exercise):

     Narmew oe piveng ayngar teri mehapxìtu amip soaiä Tsyanä sì oeyä. [1]
     I wanted to tell you about two new members of John’s and my family.

Here, both genitives (Tsyanä, oeyä) refer to soaia – notice, it’s one and the same family.

In contrast we have (from the listening exercise before that):

     … nìfkeytongay, mestxelit alu lora merel Tsyanä sì oeyä. [2]
     … actually, two gifts: two beautiful pictures of John and me.

Here, it’s two distinct pictures with one of them of John, the other of Paul.

So, it’s clear to me that

     Neytiriyä sì Tsu’teyä pa’li lu win. can only mean
     Neytiri’s and Tsu’tey’s pa’li is fast, i.e. they both own one animal.

Otherwise it would be:

     Neytiriyä sì Tsu’teyä mefa’li lu win.
     Both Neytiri’s and Tsu’tey’s pa’lis are fast, i.e. two distinct horses for two people.

As Tìtstewan said, it’s a comparison … you only compare two different things with to to make it faster, heavier, more beautiful etc. And to refers to the compared object or person. In:

     *Neytiriyä to Tsu’teyä pa’li lu win.

It’s not the pa’li that’s being compared but Neytiri and Tsu’tey.

So, I’d also use either the compared object or person twice or use pum – that’s what it’s for. “Your house is large; mine is small.”

We even have an example with to and pum (albeit with a whole sentence structure):

     Ftue lu fwa taron ngonga ioangit to fwa taron pumit a lu walak sì win.
     It’s easier to hunt lethargic animals than to hunt perky, speedy ones. [3]

Concerning Horen
Indeed, it is in need of a little update: to can be used with other cases:

     Oel to ngal yerikit taron nìltsan.
     I hunt yerik better than you.

     Oel payti nulnew to swoat.
     I prefer water to alcohol. [4]

The thing with fìtseng lu awngeyä

We have to take into consideration Na’vi relative free word order and the restraints of the film making process.

It’s easily also:

     Lu fìtseng awngeyä.
     It’s our (this) place.

We have precedence for possessive and demonstrative use together. For German speakers this is absolutely weird ;) We use a prepositional phrase (dieser Ort von uns). And I believe English does it almost similarly with “(it’s) this place of ours”.


Offline Blue Elf

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2016, 02:33:25 pm »
Perfect analysis, ma Plumps, although it does not solve main question. IMHO it is safe to use pum.
Neytiriyä pa'li to pum Tsu'teyä lu win, as already said.

This is good question for LEP grammar section.
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Offline Plumps

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2016, 02:48:09 pm »
Perfect analysis, ma Plumps, although it does not solve main question. IMHO it is safe to use pum.
Neytiriyä pa'li to pum Tsu'teyä lu win, as already said.

This is good question for LEP grammar section.

Thank you.
I agree with both ;)

Offline Tanri

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2016, 02:42:35 pm »
...and all this began as a one-moment joke, how a single letter "ä" can change the meaning.  ;D
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Offline Hahaw[hhvhhvcz]

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Re: 'to' with the genitive?
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2016, 03:21:26 pm »
...and all this began as a one-moment joke, how a single letter "ä" can change the meaning.  ;D

Seriously srak? ;D
I wanted to post something here too but Tìtstewan sì Plumps ninje'd me. So in my opinion, Na'vi language has very interesting grammar in some ways and one of these ways is this. Here, you are forced by language/grammar to use 'pum' just to make it nìlaw understandable.



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