Author Topic: Fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-  (Read 2127 times)

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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-
« on: May 22, 2011, 01:12:07 am »
Tse... what is the difference between fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-?  It seems the latter is getting used more often while the former seems more correct....

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Offline Ikran Ahiyìk

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Re: Fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2011, 02:38:41 am »
Plltxe nìhiyìk na ikran... oe fmeri sìltsan nì'ul slivu, ngaytxoa...


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Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2011, 04:13:04 am »
Fay+ and tsay+ are, obviously, mergers of the demonstrative prefixes fì-/tsa- and the plural ay+, showing the standard relative order of them. So far so good.

However, in some words (stand-alone pronouns), the demonstrative itself is considered merged with the nominal stem, and therefore the plural is affixed at the beginning. See here.

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Offline Ikran Ahiyìk

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Re: Fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2011, 04:41:41 am »
OK so there's no *fayu or *tsayu. Thanks for reminding.
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Offline Kamean

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Re: Fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2011, 10:03:20 am »
Irayo :)
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2011, 11:53:08 am »
Ayfì'u and aysa'u are exceptions, with all other words use fay+ and tsay+ :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Kamean

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Re: Fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2011, 01:55:02 pm »
I memorize it. :)
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2011, 09:43:18 pm »
Noted, irayo :)

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2011, 02:21:50 am »
I’m not sure that fayu (fì- + ay- + ’u) isn’t possible … the way I read that canon page entry, he only speaks of sa’u as the plural for ‘these things, those’ … do we have an example of him using ayfì’u ???

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2011, 07:11:53 am »
Quote from: Pawl
With the pronouns, the order of elements is ay+tsa+'u rather than the expected tsa+ay+'u, etc.

I think it means that plural forms of all pronouns we should create with this rule: ay + fì/tsa + 'u/po/etc.

  aysa'u
  ayfì'u
  ayfìpo
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Ataeghane

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Re: Fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2012, 04:32:08 pm »
Quote
But not *fìhetuwong, *tsahetuwong. (The nice thing about short plurals is that they save you a syllable; here that doesn't happen, so there's no raison d'être for the short forms with demonstratives.)

The plural of the stand-alone demonstrative pronoun tsa'u is (ay)sa'u, which follows the regular rules.

I don't see anything worrisome here, but if I'm missing something (which is entirely possible), let me know.

When I asked for clarification about the pronouns,

Right. With the pronouns, the order of elements is ay+tsa+'u rather than the expected tsa+ay+'u, etc.
Frommer says about more than one pronoun, but that's not actually practically confirmed anyhow.

That's how it works with plurals, and what about dual form? Are there any contractions? fìmeskxawng or fìmskxawng? fìpxehilvan or fìphilvan?

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2012, 04:38:46 pm »
That's how it works with plurals, and what about dual form? Are there any contractions? fìmeskxawng or fìmskxawng? fìpxehilvan or fìphilvan?

Correct are fìmeskxawng and fìpxehilvan. You can find a confirmation here:

Quote from: Pawl
Tsapxesamsiyu lu pesu/tupe?
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Ataeghane

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Re: Fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2012, 04:45:52 pm »
That's how it works with plurals, and what about dual form? Are there any contractions? fìmeskxawng or fìmskxawng? fìpxehilvan or fìphilvan?

Correct are fìmeskxawng and fìpxehilvan. You can find a confirmation here:

Quote from: Pawl
Tsapxesamsiyu lu pesu/tupe?
Thank you. I just started wondering, when I accidentally came across this:

http://naviteri.org/page/2/
(the table with forms with pe-)

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Fay+/tsay+ vs. ayfì-/(ay)sa-
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2012, 02:32:11 am »
Well, you mean this post: http://naviteri.org/2011/07/number-in-na%e2%80%99vi/, srak?
Those tables are related just to questions for number (which two men, which three women etc.). Until now I didn't have need to use any of such specific question, so I didn't bother to learn those  :) Even I didn't seen someone else used it.
Nonquestionable usage is as Kemaweyan already said, nothing special there.
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"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


 

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