Iconicity in the Lexicon

[Taronyu]

So, I was going to a talk today at the postgraduatate linguistic conference my university is currently having (which is awesome. Oh man). And there was this bit on iconicity in modern language - essentially, non-arbitrary origins for present words. I couldn't help but look at Na'vi and think of the few I know (which we've thought of before), but figured you guys would have fun too.

So, here's what I could think of:

prrte' = pleasure. Obviously, prr is the sound a pleased cat makes.
yom = this sound pretty much imitates eating. High tongue, moved to the back, and then a closed mouth. yomyomyom.
kangangang is pretty clearly onomatopoeic.

I'm sure I could find more. You guys know of any?

Also, as a side note: derivation for srak. It turns out that something like 40% of languages with question particles derive them from yes or no words. Na'vi is no real exception - sran + ko would very easily = srak. Sound cool?

right. End of quick note. Back to thinking about other things.

[Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn]

I believe that Frommer once commented on how srake was basically combined from srane and ke (not sure if you had the "o" as just a typo or not)

(zup- fall) to me almost seems like a half-onomatopoeia type word, wouldn't hear it when something was actually falling but it seems to describe falling just by the way it sounds.

(pay- water) I'm glad to see the Na'vi realize just how important pie is to the universe mmmmm.

[Kì'eyawn]

i thought that nekx had a sort of onamotopoeia to it, like the crackle of wood in a fire.  But maybe that's just me.  And i was guessing that txe'lan was supposed to sound a little like a heartbeat—especially since the stress comes on the second syllable, whereas, had i just looked at the word without knowing the meaning, i would have put the stress on the first.  Granted, it's quite a stretch to assume life on Pandora would evolve a four chambered heart with a rhythm cycle that produces two sounds, just like on Earth, but hey, i can do suspension of disbelief in the name of a good story.

[kewnya txamew'itan]

So, I was going to a talk today at the postgraduatate linguistic conference my university is currently having (which is awesome. Oh man). And there was this bit on iconicity in modern language - essentially, non-arbitrary origins for present words. I couldn't help but look at Na'vi and think of the few I know (which we've thought of before), but figured you guys would have fun too.

So, here's what I could think of:

prrte' = pleasure. Obviously, prr is the sound a pleased cat makes.
yom = this sound pretty much imitates eating. High tongue, moved to the back, and then a closed mouth. yomyomyom.
kangangang is pretty clearly onomatopoeic.

I'm sure I could find more. You guys know of any?

Also, as a side note: derivation for srak. It turns out that something like 40% of languages with question particles derive them from yes or no words. Na'vi is no real exception - sran + ko would very easily = srak. Sound cool?

right. End of quick note. Back to thinking about other things.

So iconicity is an extension of onomatopoeia to cover other sensible derivations?

Wew is almost onomatopoeic of a shiver.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

sngap 'sting' almost feels like a sting.
letrrtrr 'ordinary' has that kind of run-on feeling like 'ordinary' would be expected to have.

I have thought about words like prrte' kind of having a 'feline' feel to them. In addition, you have words like oisss that sound just like a cat hissing. The effect in the film when the Na`vi hissed was very cat-like. (This all just adds to my belief that the Na`vi are in fact a kind of felinoid instead of primatatoids.) It would be interesting to see if words can be derived from other cat sounds like the chuff (tiger and liger), humming (lion), chirr (cheetah-- some words already have this sound). Interestingly enough, big cats do not purr.

[Kì'eyawn]

...Interestingly enough, big cats do not purr.

Well, that depends on how you define your terms.  Based on your picture, i'm assuming you've worked with big cats; and jaguars at least definitely make a sound that is like purring, although it's more uneven because they only make the sound when exhaling.  But yeah, i'm with you on the Na'vi having distinctly felid characteristics.  What did Mark Twain say about that?  Something about combining man and cat would be to the betterment of Man but the detriment of Cat

[kewnya txamew'itan]

Hangham possibly has onomatopoeic roots?

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Well, that depends on how you define your terms.  Based on your picture, i'm assuming you've worked with big cats; and jaguars at least definitely make a sound that is like purring, although it's more uneven because they only make the sound when exhaling.  But yeah, i'm with you on the Na'vi having distinctly felid characteristics.  What did Mark Twain say about that?  Something about combining man and cat would be to the betterment of Man but the detriment of Cat

You are correct in your assumption that I work around big cats (the lions are roaring as I write this!)

I know what you mean about the exhale-purr in big cats. I have heard a lion do it-- but just once. Hobbs, our liger used to purr for me. He was very possessive of me, and would purr when I was with him. Knowing Hobbs and being his friend was the best experience of my life! Hobbs died in 2007, but we have a new liger now. She is developing a lot of Hobbs' character traits. But enough on cats for now.

I am going through the dictionary word-for-word tonight, updating a study aid I maintain. I will look for more examples of these kinds of words.

Irayo, 'lionmind'

[Taronyu]

Iconicity refers to anything which isn't arbitrary in origin. There's a good, more technical wiki page on it. Onomatopoeia is just part of the ways a word can be iconic.

Letrrtrr is really interesting. The second trr goes down in intensity, because there isn't as much air pressure (especially for me, because at my best my rr is highly fricated.) Good catch!

[Tsamsiyu92]

What about these too.

Mawey (to calm) - has a calm feeling.
Hufwe (wind) - sounds like a wind.

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

mawey brings to mind tam and tam tam. tam means to 'suffice, do, OK'. An interesting, and iconic use of this term is tam tam, 'calm, be content, there there', which was used in the film. I think I recall hearing it, in a scene where Neytiri is calming an upset direhorse.

Despite K. Pawl's attempts to keep English out of Na'vi, there are a few cases where it seems to have leaked through. One of these words (and one I like) is hapxì. The definition given is 'part of something'. But since part of something can be half of something, this term 'feels' very much like terms used in English for half, like 'hemi'.

One last term, and another animal term, is the name for the hellfire wasp, zize`. Sounds just like the sound a wasp would make. (Its interesting that Pandora would be plagued with wasps like Earth!)

[roger]

A lot of languages have mimetic words for animals, like calling a dog a 'bow-wow'. Miao 'cat' in Chinese, for example. Also, a lot of words are not iconic in origin, but are used in iconic fashion. So for example 'tam tam': "Tam" for 'okay' may not be iconic (though it may have arisen as an interjection, and those are very commonly iconic), but even so, the redup. 'tam tam' may have caught on as "there there" because it sounds gentle and can therefore be interpreted as iconic. Likewise words can be iconic in that they resemble other words, even though there was originally no iconicity. So e.g. English sl- in slime, slither, slink, and gl- in glitter, glimmer, glimpse, etc. There's nothing inherently iconic in sl- or gl-, but once the pattern is established, it's maintained through iconic association. Similarly with using Yiddish insults, to the extent that prefixing shm- to a word now makes it pejorative.

As for the ejectives, we're going to notice them because they're exotic, and are going to tend to interpret them as iconic regardless of whether they really are in Na'vi. The question is whether Paul had similar conceptions when he created such words, or if the consonants were assigned more or less randomly.

[Plumps]

Speaking of ejectives ... I was thinking of pxor, now that just ›explodes‹ in my mouth

[kewnya txamew'itan]

Just found kì'ong whilst writing a PM to neo describing my attempts to learn Danish and I noticed that two of the other words starting with kì are to do with thead and the third (kìte'e could be related), if kì were a root to do with threads then kì'ong would be slightly metaphorical referring to the time it takes for a thread to fray and unravel which would be quite a slow process.

In fact a possible way for kìte'e to relate would be kì-tel-'ekong with the l and kong being dropped so that service comes from a thread (possibly of a stringed instrument or a woven drumskin) receiving a beat and so providing its service.

Of course, the kìte'e is very very tenuous, but I think kì'ong could well be iconic.

[Kì'eyawn]

Just found kì'ong whilst writing a PM to neo describing my attempts to learn Danish and I noticed that two of the other words starting with kì are to do with thead and the third (kìte'e could be related), if kì were a root to do with threads then kì'ong would be slightly metaphorical referring to the time it takes for a thread to fray and unravel which would be quite a slow process.

In fact a possible way for kìte'e to relate would be kì-tel-'ekong with the l and kong being dropped so that service comes from a thread (possibly of a stringed instrument or a woven drumskin) receiving a beat and so providing its service.

Of course, the kìte'e is very very tenuous, but I think kì'ong could well be iconic.

I totally think you should ask Karyu Pawl about that; it's a cool idea.