Author Topic: Is nì- -us- productive?  (Read 2670 times)

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Offline Ataeghane

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Is nì- -us- productive?
« on: December 09, 2010, 02:51:43 pm »
We know that tì- -us-, so called gerund, is productive. We can come up with our new words like tìnusume, tìkusar, tìtusaron, tìyusom. Can can we do the same with participles? The adjvectival prticiples look like that: yusom, nusume, e.g. yusoma tute. But what happens if we need adverbial participles? Can we have nìyusom or nìnusume? Are these sentences correct?

He tried to think eating his dinner.
Po fmarmi fpivìl nìyusom sneyä wutsot.


He wanted to teach, being quite stupid.
Namew po kivar nìlusu yaymak.

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Offline Plumps

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2010, 03:49:02 pm »
If I’m not mistaken, these are shortened progressive forms really and separate sentences

He tried to think while eating his dinner
Po fmarmi fpivìl tengkrr yerom sneyä wutsot.

He wanted to teach while being quite stupid.
Namew po kivar tenkrr leru yaymak.

But of course there are other possibilities that I don’t see as a non-native speaker.

The only forms with particples I know are nìawnomum, ‘as you know’ and I have used *nìpawnlltxe a few times but I have never heard/read whether that is actually productive … I tend to say it’s rather not. But wait what the others say ;)

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2010, 03:53:26 pm »
It should be productive as participles are adjectives and nì- is productive on adjectives. That said I do not think it would mean what you do, for one thing, participles cannot take any arguments.

e.g.

he tried to think eating his dinner wouldn't work but eating, he tried to think would, and would probably use such a construction.

Likewise, running towards us he told us there were skypeople coming wouldn't work but running, he told us there were skypeople coming would.
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Offline Ataeghane

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2010, 04:17:19 pm »
I see the point BUT what about sentences like Po poltxe nìfya'o alaw.? Are they incorrect as well? (Found this in Nutshell.)

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Offline Carborundum

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2010, 04:47:37 pm »
I see the point BUT what about sentences like Po poltxe nìfya'o alaw.? Are they incorrect as well? (Found this in Nutshell.)
Nope, that’s correct. When you want an adverbial phrase, that’s the way to do it.
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Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2010, 05:52:44 pm »
Logically, it seems like adding nì- to a present participle would be grammatically allowed, but i can't wrap my brain around how i would actually use such a creature.  Everything that comes to mind in English i would translate using the imperfective infix  ???
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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2010, 08:41:17 pm »
Eltur tìtxen si... a nì-<us> construction.

I though about the po täpeykìyerkeiup nìnäk example, and thought the nì-<us> constuction might mean "by verbing"

This construction could be quite useful :)

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Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2010, 11:01:20 pm »
Eltur tìtxen si... a nì-<us> construction.

I though about the po täpeykìyerkeiup nìnäk example, and thought the nì-<us> constuction might mean "by verbing"

This construction could be quite useful :)

Hmm...  Maybe it could be a colloquialism?  I mean, "by verbing" could be covered with fa tìv<us>erb / v<us>erbfa, kefyak?  But tìnusäkfa is much more of a mouthful than nìnäk.
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2010, 11:24:35 pm »
Eltur tìtxen si... a nì-<us> construction.

I though about the po täpeykìyerkeiup nìnäk example, and thought the nì-<us> constuction might mean "by verbing"

This construction could be quite useful :)

Hmm...  Maybe it could be a colloquialism?  I mean, "by verbing" could be covered with fa tìv<us>erb / v<us>erbfa, kefyak?  But tìnusäkfa is much more of a mouthful than nìnäk.
Yes, because none of the rest of the sentence nìnäk is from is anything of a mouthful, all short concise words.
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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2010, 11:27:22 pm »
Now for another question: if we have defined "nìnäk", what would "nìnusäk" mean?

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Offline Ataeghane

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2010, 11:52:25 am »
If nìnäk means by drinking and it's some way of doing something, nìnusäk would mean doing some activity during driniking. The clear way to explain:

Pol oet tspayang nìnäk.
She will kill me by drinking. (She will force me to drink and I will die, or (maybe that's better:) she will drink and that will be the cause of my deth or, the last one, she will kill me by some kind of liquid.)


Pol oet tspayang nìnusäk.
Drinking, she will kill me. (She will kill me during the activity of drinking - she will be killing me and drinking at the same time.)


That's my sugestion.

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2010, 07:01:36 pm »
Eltur tìtxen si... a nì-<us> construction.

I though about the po täpeykìyerkeiup nìnäk example, and thought the nì-<us> constuction might mean "by verbing"

This construction could be quite useful :)

Hmm...  Maybe it could be a colloquialism?  I mean, "by verbing" could be covered with fa tìv<us>erb / v<us>erbfa, kefyak?  But tìnusäkfa is much more of a mouthful than nìnäk.
Yes, because none of the rest of the sentence nìnäk is from is anything of a mouthful, all short concise words.

HRH.  Point taken  ;)
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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2010, 07:20:25 pm »
That's my sugestion.

Frommer would need to approve that.  ;)
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Offline Ataeghane

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2010, 06:58:24 am »
Well, he would need. Indeed. (So sb should contact him and ask about adverbial participles and/or show this suggestion to him.)

And, BTW, since it's not official part of grammar, how shall I say "Searching deep(ly?), they found what they wanted"?

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2010, 01:30:47 pm »
Well, he would need. Indeed. (So sb should contact him and ask about adverbial participles and/or show this suggestion to him.)

And, BTW, since it's not official part of grammar, how shall I say "Searching deep(ly?), they found what they wanted"?

rolun fol tsa'uti a narmew fa fì'u a fwew nìleno

I wasn't sure if deeply would translate well here so I used thoroughly instead, I'm also not sure, but I think you might need to put a pumit with narmew.
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Offline Ataeghane

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2010, 04:17:44 pm »
Quote
I wasn't sure if deeply would translate well here so I used thoroughly instead, I'm also not sure,
Why would nìtxukx be wrong?

Quote
but I think you might need to put a pumit with narmew.
Well, I met pum only with pronous. What about tsat?

Quote
rolun fol tsa'uti a narmew fa fì'u a fwew nìleno
Are you sure fwew remains uninflected? Couldn't we say fwarmew?

That was my idea:

Ralmun fol tsa'uti a nerew tsat fa fwa fwerew nìtxukx.

As you can see I used past tense only in 1. sentence, then only aspect. Is it correct?

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Offline Carborundum

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2010, 04:48:53 pm »
Quote
I wasn't sure if deeply would translate well here so I used thoroughly instead, I'm also not sure,
Why would nìtxukx be wrong?
Nìtxukx means deeply all right, but to use it in this context would only be correct if you are actually searching in a vertical direction, preferably below ground (or water).
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Offline Ataeghane

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2010, 04:51:33 pm »
Well, I see your point, but I ment this particular type of searching. Is nìleno correct in other cases?

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Offline Carborundum

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2010, 05:12:40 pm »
Well, I see your point, but I ment this particular type of searching. Is nìleno correct in other cases?
I think kewnya txamew'itan must have meant nìno, which would be correct in the general sense of searching for something in a thorough manner. I guess nìleno would theoretically mean the same thing, but it seems unnecessary to stack prefixes when we don't have to.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Is nì- -us- productive?
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2010, 01:47:18 am »
Well, I see your point, but I ment this particular type of searching. Is nìleno correct in other cases?
I think kewnya txamew'itan must have meant nìno, which would be correct in the general sense of searching for something in a thorough manner. I guess nìleno would theoretically mean the same thing, but it seems unnecessary to stack prefixes when we don't have to.

Ach! My search fu was weak. I did indeed mean nìno.

Quote
I wasn't sure if deeply would translate well here so I used thoroughly instead, I'm also not sure,
Why would nìtxukx be wrong?

Quote
but I think you might need to put a pumit with narmew.
Well, I met pum only with pronous. What about tsat?

Quote
rolun fol tsa'uti a narmew fa fì'u a fwew nìleno
Are you sure fwew remains uninflected? Couldn't we say fwarmew?

That was my idea:

Ralmun fol tsa'uti a nerew tsat fa fwa fwerew nìtxukx.

As you can see I used past tense only in 1. sentence, then only aspect. Is it correct?

Pum can work with almost any noun as seen in the contruction for mine, "pum oeyä".

My choice of infixes was very specific. Them finding the object is, in you sentence portrayed as being a single point, hence the perfective, but when it happened is fairly irrelevant so I didn't both inflecting it for tense, with the wanting, that obviously is past and imperfective (hence the marking) as is fwew although this does not need to be marked as the <arm> is implied from the new.
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