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Offline Kemaweyan

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Ke li use
« on: March 31, 2011, 10:02:06 pm »
I am confused.. I see that many people use ke li with a meaning "not yet" in any sentences. We know that Pawl wrote in his blog this example of ke li:

Quote from: Pawl
For the negative, Na’vi doesn’t use a separate lexical item like English (already ~ not yet) or French (déjà ~ pas encore) but simply negates li:

  A: Fo li polähem srak?
  ‘Have they already arrived?’
  B: Ke li.
  ‘Not yet.’

But I think that this phrase could be used only as a short answer for a questions with li (or if "already" could be added without changing the meaning). The question from Pawl's example also could be just without li and the meaning would be same:

  A: Fo polähem srak?
  Have they arrived?
  B: Ke li.
  Not yet.

In all other cases we should use the word mi with a negation of the verb (example from "Vur Eyavayä"):

  Tsahìk a'ewan mi muntxa ke soli.
  Yong Tsa'hìk did not yet married.

It's just my opinion and I could be wrong, but IMO the sentence Tsahìk a'ewan ke li muntxa soli is incorrect. Please explain me if I'm mistaken.
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Offline Alyara Arati

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2011, 10:32:20 pm »
Oeru txoa livu ma Kemaweyan.  I wanted to say "not yet" rather than "still not" because it sounds much more normal to me in English.  I thought about:

Tsahìk a'ewan muntxa ke li soli. and Tsahìk a'ewan li muntxa ke soli.

But the first example looked all wrong with li between muntxa and soli, and the second seemed to mean "...has already not married." which makes no sense.

Should I stop using ke li for "not yet" until this question is resolved?  I could go back and fix it...
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2011, 10:36:16 pm »
Actually mi also could mean "yet", not only "still" :) But I'm not sure that your sentence is wrong. That's just IMO.
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2011, 06:22:16 am »
It's just my opinion and I could be wrong, but IMO the sentence Tsahìk a'ewan ke li muntxa soli is incorrect. Please explain me if I'm mistaken.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong (that is, your doubts, not the example sentence). This pattern, ke li "not already" for the English "not yet", is fairly common among Human languages.  There's no reason to suspect it in Na'vi.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2011, 06:35:30 am »
  A: Fo polähem srak?
  Have they arrived?
  B: Ke li.
  Not yet.
the new question means "have they arrived" in the general sense. it doesn't have to be "have they already arrived". one could also think it's "have they arrived in a time in the past". I think if someone would have asked me that I will answer "yes" or "no". you have to have the "already" there to understand the question, unless it's obvious from the situation.
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Offline Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2011, 06:44:20 am »
I am posting this in another reply since I had no space on the previous one.

Tsahìk a'ewan mi muntxa ke soli.
Yong Tsa'hìk did not yet married.

It's just my opinion and I could be wrong, but IMO the sentence Tsahìk a'ewan ke li muntxa soli is incorrect. Please explain me if I'm mistaken.
I don't see anything wrong with ke li in the middle of a sentence. it is used just the way li is used.
when using mi you are telling about a situation that is still happening/ongoing. when using ke li you're talking about an action that hasn't yet happened. so Tsahìk a'ewan mi muntxa ke soli. is "the Tsahìk still isn't married/continues not marrying". he keeps on this situation. to say that he "hasn't yet married" (it just hasn't yet happened) you use "ke li".
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Offline Kamean

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2011, 10:44:46 am »
I am for double negation. This is an important stylistic feature, and IMHO it shouldn't be neglected.
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Offline Alyara Arati

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2011, 02:58:59 pm »
I am for double negation. This is an important stylistic feature, and IMHO it shouldn't be neglected.

So:  Tsahìk a'ewan ke li muntxa ke soli.  Yes?
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Offline Kamean

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2011, 03:09:10 pm »
Yes.
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2011, 03:17:43 pm »
I am for double negation. This is an important stylistic feature, and IMHO it shouldn't be neglected.

So:  Tsahìk a'ewan ke li muntxa ke soli.  Yes?


This at least makes sense :) But I still can't understand why use ke li? Tì'efumì oeyä, ke li = mi. This is something like lu letsranten = tsranten. Possible but enough strange :-\
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2011, 03:45:32 pm »
Yes.

No.  There's no reason this would be necessary.  First, he made no effort to give an example of such a construction, which seems like a big oversight if that is the rule.

Second, negating a non-negative adverb (nì- forms, other adverbs and pronouns not having a ke-/kaw- formation) has not previously caused another negative to appear.  For example (from his blog):

  Nga plltxe ke nìfyeyntu ki nì’eveng. You speak not like an adult but a child.

Here the negation of the adverb isn't doubled with another verb negation.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2011, 03:57:57 pm »
Ok. We could ask a question to this sentence:

  Tsahìk a'ewan muntxa soli srak?

and an answer would be "No":

  Tsahìk a'ewan muntxa ke soli.

Now we can add any negative words here (ke li, kawtuhu etc.), but negation of verb does not change. This is the way how double negation appears.
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2011, 04:06:05 pm »
Someone needs to ask Pawl about this.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Kamean

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2011, 04:30:49 pm »
Of course.
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2013, 02:03:38 pm »
Sorry for the major bump, but I just ran into this again today when I wanted to say

"I have not yet received an offer."

Do we have confirmation of anything in this thread yet?

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2013, 02:23:35 pm »
Hmm.. interesting.

How about this:
kekem li
No action yet
  OR   kekem ke si li
do nothing yet
???
...I was confused by yet vs still. ::)

Anyway, I'm curious too. :)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 05:27:05 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Tanri

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2013, 04:38:10 pm »
Oel ke li ke tolel kea stxenut - "I have not yet received an offer."
I don't see any confusion here. Compare with "Oel mi terel ’a’awa stxenut fratrr" - "I am still receiving several offers every day". The "ke li - not yet" versus "mi - still" distinction looks very clear to me.

Ok. We could ask a question to this sentence:
  Tsahìk a'ewan muntxa soli srak?
and an answer would be "No":
  Tsahìk a'ewan muntxa ke soli.
Now we can add any negative words here (ke li, kawtuhu etc.), but negation of verb does not change. This is the way how double negation appears.
I agree. I even think that "ke li" actually triggers double negation, so if I wanted to say literally "No, young Tsahìk isn't married yet", it should be "Kehe, tsahìk a'ewan ke li muntxa ke soli", not "Kehe, tsahìk a'ewan ke li muntxa soli".

Kehe! Ke li karyul ke oeyktolìng fìtxeleti ayoer!
     - No! The teacher haven't yet explained this matter to us! (students complaining about exams)
Ayngaru tìkxey, ma eylan oeyä, nga zene ivomum tsat. Fìtìomumìri aynga li nalmume mezìsìtkam, am’aluke!
     - You are wrong, my friends, you have to know that. This knowledge you have already learned two years ago, undoubtedly! (examiner's response)
Tìvawmìri txopu rä’ä si. Nrr!

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 01:32:19 am »
Oel ke li ke tolel kea stxenut - "I have not yet received an offer."
I don't see any confusion here. Compare with "Oel mi terel ’a’awa stxenut fratrr" - "I am still receiving several offers every day". The "ke li - not yet" versus "mi - still" distinction looks very clear to me.

Why are you comparing ke tolel with terel? This difference is clear at all. But what about

  Oel mi ke tolel kea stxenut vs Oel ke li ke tolel kea stxenut

Also I think «not yet» in translation of ke li is a mistake, because there is «<have not> yet» in the sentence. And in languages with double negation we don't use it in such phrases. It seems odd to me. And there is no different between «still» and «yet» in Russian (like mi has both these translations).

I even think that "ke li" actually triggers double negation

No. ke- or kaw- worlds don't trigger negation of the verb. They just don't change negative meaning of the sentence. So if the sentence is Oe ke tse'a, it already is negative (ke tse'a), then adding ke'ut doesn't change this negation: Oel ke tse'a ke'ut. We say ke tse'a not because there is ke'ut, but because «I don't see». This is canonical double negation in natural languages, I can say it as native speaker. But if there is different «double negation» in Na'vi, then we need an explanation from Pawl...

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2013, 02:56:45 am »
so right or wrong for each of these?

ke li oel ke tolel 'upxaret.
li oel ke tolel 'upxaret.
ke li oel tolel 'upxaret.

ke mi oel ke tolel 'upxaret.
mi oel ke tolel 'upxaret.
ke mi oel tolel 'upxaret.

I think most of them are not right.


So of course ke li does not trigger a negation of a verb, but can a negated verb be used with ke li?

The question is, What is the actual best way to say:

1. I have not received a message yet.
2. I still have not received a message.
3. I haven't received any messages yet.
4. I still haven't received any messages.

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Ke li use
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2013, 03:07:33 am »
ke li oel ke tolel 'upxaret.
li oel ke tolel 'upxaret.
ke li oel tolel 'upxaret.

ke mi oel ke tolel 'upxaret.
mi oel ke tolel 'upxaret.
ke mi oel tolel 'upxaret.

I'd say mi oel ke tolel 'upxaret...
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