Author Topic: Ke li use  (Read 3354 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9847
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2013, 03:40:28 am »
as the only correct one? You say all of the others are not correct? Or you choose that as the best one?

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://tirearadio.com/podcast
Learn Na'vi Discord Chat: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2013, 04:00:55 am »
We have an example from Pawl with ke li ke verb, so it's correct currently. But I hope that it will be denied :-\
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6128
  • Karma: 221
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2013, 04:45:27 am »
Lu koren ìlä Haryu Pawl:

[1]
Vìmingkap oeti fula poe ke li ke poltxe san oe zasya’u.
‘It just occurred to me that she hasn’t yet said she’s coming.’

[2] “Zene fko pivlltxe san ke li ke plltxe sìk. Oeri tsakorenit pxìm tswänga’. Krro lu ’Ìnglìsì txur nìhawng mì re’o.”

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2013, 04:56:45 am »
That's what I'm talking about. Why ke li? Why not use just mi? :-\ What's the difference?
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6128
  • Karma: 221
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2013, 05:01:46 am »
The answer lies in the explanation for li ;)

From http://naviteri.org/2011/02/new-vocabulary-part-2/


Quote from: K. Pawl
For the negative, Na’vi doesn’t use a separate lexical item like English (already ~ not yet) or French (déjà ~ pas encore) but simply negates li:

Also note, li is about completion, mi is about an ongoing event.

Ngal mi fìtsengit terok srak?
= You’re still here?

Ngal li fìtsengit tok srak?
= You’re already here?

I can’t even grasp how an English translation of ngal mi fìtsengit ke terok srak? would make sense… “you are not still here?” whereas the second would be ngal ke li fìtsengit ke tok srak? “you’re not here yet?” or “you still aren’t here?”
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 05:08:43 am by Plumps »

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2013, 05:07:15 am »
It's not an explanation. If Na'vi «doesn't use a separate lexical item», then what does mi mean and how to use it? This word exists in the language and means «yet» or «still» - it is «a separate lexical item».

Also note, li is about completion, mi is about an ongoing event.

Right. And «ke verb» actually is an ongoing event. Oel ke tolel 'upxaret trram, ke tolel fìtrr... So ke tolel mi. But tolel li (without negation) - I use li because it's complete.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 05:10:25 am by Kemaweyan »
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6128
  • Karma: 221
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2013, 05:26:51 am »
It gets more and more confusing ;D
Interestingly enough, we have examples where a sentence with mi is negated :P

Tsatsko lu spuwin ulte ke lu mi txur, slä oeri txanwawe leiu. (here)
“That bow is old and no longer strong, but it means a lot to me.”

Tsaikranìri taluna new ngati tspivang, law lu fwa mi ke lu zäfi. (here)
“Since that ikran wants to kill you, it’s clear it’s still not tame.”

The first I would have used ke … nulkrr for that.
The second is a case where I would have used ke li in retrospect.

It could also be that these are just mistakes ;) It has been known to happen :P




Quote
Right. And «ke verb» actually is an ongoing event. Oel ke tolel 'upxaret trram, ke tolel fìtrr... So ke tolel mi. But tolel li (without negation) - I use li because it's complete.

Hìtxoa, but that doesn’t add up. How can you say ke verb is ongoing and use ‹ol› in the verb which says it’s completed? :-\

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2013, 06:13:55 am »
The first I would have used ke … nulkrr for that.

I agree, mi seems odd here. I'd use li. If the bow is old and therefore is not strong, it's obvious that tsko slolu meyp - completed event. So in this sentence ke lu txur means completed event (becoming weak).

  Tsatsko lu spuwin ulte ke lu li txur

But your version with nulkrr seems fine too.

The second is a case where I would have used ke li in retrospect.

Why? ke lu zäfi is an ongoing state, it did not become to anything. When it layu zäfi, then you cold say li.

Hìtxoa, but that doesn’t add up. How can you say ke verb is ongoing and use ‹ol› in the verb which says it’s completed? :-\

Note: ke -ol-, so not completed :) Therefore it's an ongoing state.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6128
  • Karma: 221
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2013, 08:15:36 am »
Note: ke -ol-, so not completed :) Therefore it's an ongoing state.

Say, whaaaaat? :o I’ve never heard that ke overrides aspect.

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2013, 08:43:29 am »
Note: ke -ol-, so not completed :) Therefore it's an ongoing state.

Say, whaaaaat? :o I’ve never heard that ke overrides aspect.

No, ke says that action does not happen. Infix -ol- means a completion of an action, so Oel tolel 'upxaret means that receiving is done. But ke in Oel ke tolel 'upxaret changes the meaning to negative: receiving is not done. We don't know: is now receiving in progress or even have not started - it does not matter if we use -ol-...
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9804
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 321
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2013, 09:51:57 am »
Quote from: Tirea Aean
1. I have not received a message yet.
2. I still have not received a message.
3. I haven't received any messages yet.
4. I still haven't received any messages.

I guss, this:
1. I have not received a message yet.
Oel ke li ke talmol 'upxareti.

2. I still have not received a message.
Oel ke talmol 'upxareti mi.

3. I haven't received any messages yet.
Oel ke li ke talmol kea upxareti.

4. I still haven't received any messages.
Oel ke talmol kea upxareti mi.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 05:10:58 pm by Tìtstewan »

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Tanri

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1024
  • cz Czech Republic
  • Karma: 25
  • Mìkam aysanhì tìranyu.
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2013, 05:07:33 pm »
My attempt, almost the same as Tìtstewan's one, with some differences:
- past tense removed, because this is only about aspect, as the receiving of the message is (or is not) completed, therefore that message is (or is not) received.
- added plural when speaking about multiple messages
- added double negation in 1 and 2 (...ke tolel kea ’upxaret)

1) I have not received a message yet.
- Oel ke li ke tolel kea ’upxaret.

2) I still have not received a message.
- Oel mi ke tolel kea ’upxaret.

3) I haven't received any messages yet.
- Oel ke li ke tolel kea upxaret.

4) I still haven't received any messages.
- Oel mi ke tolel kea upxaret.

Examples 1 and 3 are almost the same, only number of messages makes difference.

Tìvawmìri txopu rä’ä si. Nrr!

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2013, 05:13:44 pm »
Hmm.. does not refer to yet:-\ I think there is have not. You could omit yet and the meaning would not change: I have not received a message yet.

Also there is a translation «yet» for mi in the dictionary. So Oel mi ke tolel kea 'upxaret could be «I have not received a message yet» too.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9804
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 321
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2013, 05:32:22 pm »
I thought, that with "have to" is mean as Past Perfect Simple? Hence I used not <ol>...


-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6128
  • Karma: 221
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2013, 05:51:41 pm »
Off topic but we would translate that a bit differently:


Quote
Also there is a translation «yet» for mi in the dictionary. So Oel mi ke tolel kea 'upxaret could be «I have not received a message yet» too.
Technically, this is “I have still not received any message.” kea is ‘any’ in this sentence. ;)

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9804
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 321
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Ke li use
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2013, 05:58:11 pm »
Irayo ma Plumps, that stuff bown up my mind...

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy
| XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, or the Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi