Author Topic: <iv>. What is it?  (Read 1675 times)

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Offline Nongyu te Syulang Swokioang'itan

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<iv>. What is it?
« on: July 05, 2013, 04:43:56 pm »
I've been trying to understand the usage of <iv>. I've read that it sort of means that you wish to do something. Like san tivaron sìk; "I wish to hunt". But then I look through 8 pages of practice sentences, and it's EVERYWHERE. By my understanding it does not make sense, so obviously I've misunderstood something :P I adjusted my understanding to something like "<iv> is something you use whenever you wish to express yourself nìNa'vi". Can someone PLEASE tell me? ??? This is confusing my brain and it's 23:40... not helping :P :) :'(
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: <iv>. What is it?
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2013, 04:47:19 pm »
This:
<iv>
A) required in secondary verbs which come after modal verbs. e.g. Oe zene yivom = I must eat.
B) used with wishes, hopes, etc. This includes verbs appearing after fte and fteke.
C) used optionally in commands. e. g. Nga ziva'u fìtseng! = You come here!

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Offline Nongyu te Syulang Swokioang'itan

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Re: <iv>. What is it?
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2013, 05:05:06 pm »
Irayo, ma Tìtstewan! That cleared things up a bit... But how do I recognoise a modal verb?
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: <iv>. What is it?
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2013, 05:08:07 pm »
You will find modal verbs in the dictionary. It's marked as vm., vim. or vtrm. :)

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Offline Nongyu te Syulang Swokioang'itan

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Re: <iv>. What is it?
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2013, 05:13:43 pm »
Yes, but what I struggle with is how they work in comparison to each other... Could you show me some examples? Sorry if I am a little unclear :/
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: <iv>. What is it?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2013, 05:41:17 pm »
Do you mean <iv> combined with other infixes?

If yes:
<imv> Past subjunctive.  --> <iv> + <am> e. g.
Ngal zene syìmvep fìnantangit. = You must have caught this Nantang.

<iyev> or <ìyev> Future subjunctive.   --> <iv> + <ay> e. g.
Ngal zene syìyevep fìnantangit. = You will be catch this Nantang.

<ilv> Perfective Subjunctive.   --> <iv> + <ol> e. g.
Ngal zene syilvep fìnantangit. = You had to catch this Nantang. (is happend)

<irv> Imperfective Subjunctive.  --> <iv> + <er> e. g.
Ngal zene syirvep fìnantangit. = You have to catch this Nantang. (but you not finish)


I hope it's correct.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 09:20:46 am by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: <iv>. What is it?
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2013, 06:47:00 pm »
This might help...

A modal verb is a verb used to express tense, aspect, modality, voice, emphasis, etc...
In English, we know them by: can, shall, will, must, may...  

In Na'vi, there are currently 12 modal verbs.
zene (must), zenke (must not), tsun (can), new (to want), kan (to aim, can also be translated as "intend" pending use), fmi (to try, attempt), sngä'i (to start), var (to continue, persist), ftang (to stop), nulnew (to prefer), sto (to refuse (to do something)), may' (to try, sample, evaluate, check out).

With all of these, the modal verb must come before the second descriptive verb.  And, pending the verb, sometimes you use case endings with the subject, sometimes you do not.  But with all of these modal verbs, if you use a modal verb with a second verb, you have to put the <iv> infix in the second verb.

Plus, when you have a sentence with a modal and secondary verb.  Think of it as two parts.  The modal (first) may affect the subject case ending.  The secondary verb may affect the case ends (subject, direct object) if the secondary verb is a transitive verb (vtr).

Rather than go into further detail, I would suggest looking at:  Na'vi in a Nutshell in Chapter 5 on pp11-12.  That will give you a good beginning overview.  (However realize the guide is out of date and only lists eight modals at the time of that printing/edition...)

One interesting note, is that sweylu (should) is not currently defined as a modal verb.  This verb has some special rules pending the time/aspect at you can read that on p14 of NiaN.  (Edit:  See comment by ma Plumps below...)


Tìtstewan is quite right that <iv> has different uses.  To clarify his "C)", using the <iv> infix in a command, is meant to soften the command, or be more polite.  Instead of "You come here!".  Adding the <iv> into za'u (to come) > z<iv>a'u.  Infers that the command now is "You come here!  (Please...)"  
(Was not aware of the change with <iv> in commands.  Makes note for NiaN rewrite...)


Hope this helps!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 12:12:42 pm by Taronyu Leleioae »

Offline Plumps

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Re: <iv>. What is it?
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2013, 01:42:16 am »
I've been trying to understand the usage of <iv>. I've read that it sort of means that you wish to do something. Like san tivaron sìk; "I wish to hunt". But then I look through 8 pages of practice sentences, and it's EVERYWHERE. By my understanding it does not make sense, so obviously I've misunderstood something :P I adjusted my understanding to something like "<iv> is something you use whenever you wish to express yourself nìNa'vi".
It’s always difficult to explain a usage of a grammatical bit with one example (even one sentence) because sometimes, one think only makes sense in context.

If you just read/write oe tivaron, it’s out of context but most people would probably translate it as “I would hunt”.

As the others already explained in length, ‹iv› is often a grammatical necessity. Depending on its use it translates differently which is probably why it causes so much confusion. The general rules (that Tìtstewan mentioned) still apply. This is where ‹iv› comes into play and there is another use now with zun/zel which is “if … then …” for things that didn’t happen or that you speculate about that might (have) happen(ed) – if that goes into the B category I’m not sure.

But how do I recognoise a modal verb?
I think there is no other way than simply to learn them ;) The list of 12 that TL gave is correct.

Yes, but what I struggle with is how they work in comparison to each other...
I hope I understand you correctly… If there is one category ‘modal’ why are they marked vim., vtrm. additionally?

The reason is that they first have to work in the frame of Na’vi’s case system of vtr. (verbs using the L and T endings) and vin. (verbs using no ending or RU)

zene, zenke, tsun and others work as vin. because you can’t say “I must child” or “you can tree”. Those verbs are always followed by an action, “I must eat” or “you can speak”.

Verbs like new, kan, nulnew and sto on the other hand can be used as vtr. as well which means you can say “I want this fruit” or “I refuse this offer” in addition to refering to an action as well “I want to eat” or “you refuse to hunt”.

I hope that clarifies things for the moment. If you have further questions please don’t hesitate to ask.




*Ngal zene syìmvep fìnantangit.

*Ngal zene syìyevep fìnantangit.

*Ngal zene syilvep fìnantangit.

*Ngal zene syirvep fìnantangit.

I hope it's correct.

I’m afraid your example sentences don’t work.
With modals the rule is that tense and aspect infixes go into the modal and only ‹iv› appears in the second verb.




One interesting note, is that sweylu (should) is not currently defined as a modal verb.  This verb has some special rules pending the time/aspect at you can read that on p14 of NiaN.

I don’t think it ever will be! If so, Pawl would have made that clear right away. The Na’vi concept of “should” is just different in that it comes from “it is best that …” – no modal construct needed really.



Tìtstewan is quite right that <iv> has different uses.  To clarify his "C)", using the <iv> infix in a command, is meant to soften the command, or be more polite.  Instead of "You come here!".  Adding the <iv> into za'u (to come) > z<iv>a'u.  Infers that the command now is "You come here!  (Please...)"

… and the legend lives on …
Pawl said, “At an earlier point in the history of the language there was probably a polite/familiar distinction (the -iv- form being the politer one), but that's no longer the case. They're used interchangeably. So to say "Go!" you can say either kivä or just kä. ”
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 09:04:58 am by Plumps »

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: <iv>. What is it?
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2013, 09:45:47 am »
*Ngal zene syìmvep fìnantangit.

*Ngal zene syìyevep fìnantangit.

*Ngal zene syilvep fìnantangit.

*Ngal zene syirvep fìnantangit.

I hope it's correct.

I’m afraid your example sentences don’t work.
With modals the rule is that tense and aspect infixes go into the modal and only ‹iv› appears in the second verb.

Damn. I really was mixed up by the tenses. :-[

Tìtstewan is quite right that <iv> has different uses.  To clarify his "C)", using the <iv> infix in a command, is meant to soften the command, or be more polite.  Instead of "You come here!".  Adding the <iv> into za'u (to come) > z<iv>a'u.  Infers that the command now is "You come here!  (Please...)"

… and the legend lives on …
Pawl said, “At an earlier point in the history of the language there was probably a polite/familiar distinction (the -iv- form being the politer one), but that's no longer the case. They're used interchangeably. So to say "Go!" you can say either kivä or just kä. ”
So, I can say f.e. Nga kivä! / Nga kä! -> You go!, but <iv> isn't necessary for an imperative? But...oh, I read 'optionally' in the stage C...

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Offline Plumps

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Re: <iv>. What is it?
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2013, 10:45:33 am »
Quote
… and the legend lives on …
Pawl said, “At an earlier point in the history of the language there was probably a polite/familiar distinction (the -iv- form being the politer one), but that's no longer the case. They're used interchangeably. So to say "Go!" you can say either kivä or just kä. ”
So, I can say f.e. Nga kivä! / Nga kä! -> You go!, but <iv> isn't necessary for an imperative? But...oh, I read 'optionally' in the stage C...

Exactly. As with many other languages intonation would make it clear ;)
Kä / kivä means “go!” (singular & plural)
even ftang nga (as heard in the film) is possible as “(you) stop (doing that)!”

Offline Nongyu te Syulang Swokioang'itan

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Re: <iv>. What is it?
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2013, 04:27:14 pm »
Wow. That was a lot of answer to what I thought was a simple question.
Irayo ma Plumps si ma Titstewan, although you both sort of misunderstood my question, you really hit spot on with your explanations! :P

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: <iv>. What is it?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2013, 03:22:35 pm »
This might help...

A modal verb is a verb used to express tense, aspect, modality, voice, emphasis, etc...
In English, we know them by: can, shall, will, must, may...  
Standard sentence contains just one verb. Modal construction is sentence, which contains two verbs and one of them is modal verb (one of 12 known as stated earlier), which controls the second verb (I want to do something, I started to work).
All infixes go into modal verb (green), <iv> goes into controlled verb. If necessary, <äp>+<eyk> can be put into controlled verb too.
All other information were already said, I think.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


 

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