Ke li use

Started by Kemaweyan, March 31, 2011, 10:02:06 PM

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Tirea Aean

as the only correct one? You say all of the others are not correct? Or you choose that as the best one?

Kemaweyan

We have an example from Pawl with ke li ke verb, so it's correct currently. But I hope that it will be denied :-\
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Plumps

Lu koren ìlä Haryu Pawl:

[1]
Vìmingkap oeti fula poe ke li ke poltxe san oe zasya'u.
'It just occurred to me that she hasn't yet said she's coming.'

[2] "Zene fko pivlltxe san ke li ke plltxe sìk. Oeri tsakorenit pxìm tswänga'. Krro lu 'Ìnglìsì txur nìhawng mì re'o."

Kemaweyan

That's what I'm talking about. Why ke li? Why not use just mi? :-\ What's the difference?
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Plumps

#24
The answer lies in the explanation for li ;)

From http://naviteri.org/2011/02/new-vocabulary-part-2/


Quote from: K. PawlFor the negative, Na'vi doesn't use a separate lexical item like English (already ~ not yet) or French (déjà ~ pas encore) but simply negates li:

Also note, li is about completion, mi is about an ongoing event.

Ngal mi fìtsengit terok srak?
= You're still here?

Ngal li fìtsengit tok srak?
= You're already here?

I can't even grasp how an English translation of ngal mi fìtsengit ke terok srak? would make sense... "you are not still here?" whereas the second would be ngal ke li fìtsengit ke tok srak? "you're not here yet?" or "you still aren't here?"

Kemaweyan

#25
It's not an explanation. If Na'vi «doesn't use a separate lexical item», then what does mi mean and how to use it? This word exists in the language and means «yet» or «still» - it is «a separate lexical item».

Quote from: Plumps on September 18, 2013, 05:01:46 AM
Also note, li is about completion, mi is about an ongoing event.

Right. And «ke verb» actually is an ongoing event. Oel ke tolel 'upxaret trram, ke tolel fìtrr... So ke tolel mi. But tolel li (without negation) - I use li because it's complete.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Plumps

It gets more and more confusing ;D
Interestingly enough, we have examples where a sentence with mi is negated :P

Tsatsko lu spuwin ulte ke lu mi txur, slä oeri txanwawe leiu. (here)
"That bow is old and no longer strong, but it means a lot to me."

Tsaikranìri taluna new ngati tspivang, law lu fwa mi ke lu zäfi. (here)
"Since that ikran wants to kill you, it's clear it's still not tame."

The first I would have used ke ... nulkrr for that.
The second is a case where I would have used ke li in retrospect.

It could also be that these are just mistakes ;) It has been known to happen :P





QuoteRight. And «ke verb» actually is an ongoing event. Oel ke tolel 'upxaret trram, ke tolel fìtrr... So ke tolel mi. But tolel li (without negation) - I use li because it's complete.

Hìtxoa, but that doesn't add up. How can you say ke verb is ongoing and use ‹ol› in the verb which says it's completed? :-\

Kemaweyan

Quote from: Plumps on September 18, 2013, 05:26:51 AM
The first I would have used ke ... nulkrr for that.

I agree, mi seems odd here. I'd use li. If the bow is old and therefore is not strong, it's obvious that tsko slolu meyp - completed event. So in this sentence ke lu txur means completed event (becoming weak).

  Tsatsko lu spuwin ulte ke lu li txur

But your version with nulkrr seems fine too.

Quote from: Plumps on September 18, 2013, 05:26:51 AM
The second is a case where I would have used ke li in retrospect.

Why? ke lu zäfi is an ongoing state, it did not become to anything. When it layu zäfi, then you cold say li.

Quote from: Plumps on September 18, 2013, 05:26:51 AM
Hìtxoa, but that doesn't add up. How can you say ke verb is ongoing and use ‹ol› in the verb which says it's completed? :-\

Note: ke -ol-, so not completed :) Therefore it's an ongoing state.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Plumps

Quote from: Kemaweyan on September 18, 2013, 06:13:55 AMNote: ke -ol-, so not completed :) Therefore it's an ongoing state.

Say, whaaaaat? :o I've never heard that ke overrides aspect.

Kemaweyan

Quote from: Plumps on September 18, 2013, 08:15:36 AM
Quote from: Kemaweyan on September 18, 2013, 06:13:55 AMNote: ke -ol-, so not completed :) Therefore it's an ongoing state.

Say, whaaaaat? :o I've never heard that ke overrides aspect.

No, ke says that action does not happen. Infix -ol- means a completion of an action, so Oel tolel 'upxaret means that receiving is done. But ke in Oel ke tolel 'upxaret changes the meaning to negative: receiving is not done. We don't know: is now receiving in progress or even have not started - it does not matter if we use -ol-...
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tìtstewan

#30
Quote from: Tirea Aean
1. I have not received a message yet.
2. I still have not received a message.
3. I haven't received any messages yet.
4. I still haven't received any messages.

I guss, this:
1. I have not received a message yet.
Oel ke li ke talmol 'upxareti.

2. I still have not received a message.
Oel ke talmol 'upxareti mi.

3. I haven't received any messages yet.
Oel ke li ke talmol kea upxareti.

4. I still haven't received any messages.
Oel ke talmol kea upxareti mi.

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Tanri

My attempt, almost the same as Tìtstewan's one, with some differences:
- past tense removed, because this is only about aspect, as the receiving of the message is (or is not) completed, therefore that message is (or is not) received.
- added plural when speaking about multiple messages
- added double negation in 1 and 2 (...ke tolel kea 'upxaret)

1) I have not received a message yet.
- Oel ke li ke tolel kea 'upxaret.

2) I still have not received a message.
- Oel mi ke tolel kea 'upxaret.

3) I haven't received any messages yet.
- Oel ke li ke tolel kea upxaret.

4) I still haven't received any messages.
- Oel mi ke tolel kea upxaret.

Examples 1 and 3 are almost the same, only number of messages makes difference.

Tätxawyu akì'ong.

Kemaweyan

Hmm.. does not refer to yet:-\ I think there is have not. You could omit yet and the meaning would not change: I have not received a message yet.

Also there is a translation «yet» for mi in the dictionary. So Oel mi ke tolel kea 'upxaret could be «I have not received a message yet» too.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tìtstewan

I thought, that with "have to" is mean as Past Perfect Simple? Hence I used not <ol>...


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Plumps

Off topic but we would translate that a bit differently:

Quote from: Tìtstewan on September 18, 2013, 05:32:22 PM

QuoteAlso there is a translation «yet» for mi in the dictionary. So Oel mi ke tolel kea 'upxaret could be «I have not received a message yet» too.
Technically, this is "I have still not received any message." kea is 'any' in this sentence. ;)

Tìtstewan

Quote from: Plumps on September 18, 2013, 05:51:41 PM
Quote from: Tìtstewan on September 18, 2013, 05:32:22 PM
Irayo ma Plumps, that stuff bown up my mind...

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