Questions about the language

Started by Tìtstewan, March 16, 2013, 08:33:34 PM

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Tìtstewan

Kaltxì ma frapo!

I read Horen leNa'vi and I ask me about these ambiguities about the Na'vi language.
I do not know if it was already spoken about it, but it would be good, this confusion would vanish?



Took from Horen:


Text in maroon is for matters that seem to me to be serious questions about the language but for which no answer is currently available.

Section: 3.2. The Pronoun

3.2.1. Animacy. Brief outline of animacy hierarchy might be useful here. Is a bug animate?
Brief mention and defer to syntax?


3.2.3.1. For the inclusive first person forms, use separate pronouns, ohe ngengasì (with enclitic
and). In the film we apparently get ohengeyä. (confirmed *click*)


Section: 3.3. Prenouns

3.3.1. Fì-. This prenoun is for proximal deixis, this. When it is followed by the plural prefix ay+
they contract into fay+, these. But we've seen fìay- from Frommer at least once, oel foru fìaylì'ut
tolìng a krr, kxawm oe harmahängaw
, Jan 26.


3.3.4. Fra-. This prenoun means all, every. When it is followed by the plural prefix ay+ they
contract into fray+.


^See there: Na'vi details from Avatarmeet 2013
Quote from: Ftiafpi on July 27, 2013, 03:06:12 PM
Fì + ay will generally turn into fay+ especially in rapid or casual speech but in formal or precise speech it may be fìay+.

However, fra + ay will always be fray+.

3.3.7. Combinations. The prenouns may combine on a single word, in this order —

fìtsa-
fra-number markingfne-the noun-pe
pe+

Only one from each column may be used, and of course the question affix is only used once. The
full details of this ordering are not yet confirmed for fra-.



Section: 3.4. Correlatives

3.4.0.2. Plurals for these are a bit funky. Though tsa'u is from tsa- and 'u, the plural is (ay)sa'u.
Confirmed, but details might be nice. How to work in tsapo?


3.4.2. Fì'u and Tsaw in Clause Nominalization. The demonstrative pronoun fì'u and inanimate
pronoun tsaw are used with the attributive particle a to nominalize clauses (§6.18.4). When
the attributive particle follows certain case forms of the pronoun, they contract:

CaseFì'u ContractionTsaw Contraction
Subjectivefwa (< fì'u a)tsawa
Agentivefula (< fì'ul a)tsala (confirmed *click*)
Patientivefuta (< fì'ut a)tsata
Topicalfuria (< fì'uri a)tsaria

Section: 4.2. Ordinal Numbers

4.2.1.1. Can combine freely with nì-? Yes Ordinals & nume

4.4.3.1. Kew is zero. Current documentation doesn't make clear if this idea is native or imported
from the Humans.



Section: 5.1. Derivational Affixes

5.1.4.1. Tì- ‹us› creates a gerund. It is fully productive for verb roots and compounds (si-construction
verbs, §5.3.3, cannot be made into a gerund). This is most useful when a simple tì- derivation
already has an established meaning, as in rey live, tìrey life, but tìrusey living. See also
§6.9.2. What about yomtìng? Yomtìtusìng? -> It's yomtusìng. Infixes goes in the second part. Also see her: Gerund part


Section: 6.1. Transitivity and Ergativity

6.1.2.2. Na'vi is also pragmatically split-ergative. In connected discourse one may drop the subject
pronoun if it doesn't change. The subject may be either subjective or agentive. See some pragmatics
section.



Section: 6.2. Noun Phrases and Adjectives

6.2.1. Number. Are the dual and trial collective vs. plural distributive? Or always obligatory?


Section: 6.5. Adpositions

6.5.22.3. How to explain this: law lu oeru fwa nga mì reltseo nolume nìtxan! Restriction of
scope, like mì sìrey?


6.5.41. Vay. Up to, until. This may be used of both time and space, tsakrrvay, ayngeyä tìmweypeyri
irayo seiyi oe
until that time, I thank (you) for your patience. There's a line from the video game
with a local use.



Section: 6.6. Adverbs

6.6.8.2. Note about sentence adverbs vs. nìfya'o forms?


Section: 6.7. Aspect and Tense

6.7.7. Tense. Na'vi tense, as in Human languages, simply locates an event in time.
There are too few examples of complex sentences to be sure about relative tense in subordinate
clauses.


Section: 6.8. Subjunctive

6.8.3.2. Known modal verbs and verbs with modal syntax:11
[...] that footnote
11Other candidates: sto refuse confirmed as modal verb, flä succeed, hawl prepare.

6.8.5. Other Uses. The subjunctive is also used in purpose clauses with fte (§6.17.2), conditional
sentences (§6.19), with the conjunction tsnì when used with certain verbs (§6.20.7).


Section: 6.17. Complex Sentences

6.17.1. Tense and Aspect in Dependent Subjunctives. Do dependent verbs have TAM-solidarity
with their controlling verb?



Section: 6.18. Relative Clauses and Phrase Attribution

6.18.4.3. Clauses may also be nominalized with forms of tsa'u. The difference between fì'u
and tsa'u is that the tsa'u form can be used when the clause it anchors refers to something old
in the discourse, something which has been previously discussed. This subtlety is not required,
however, and forms in fì'u are never wrong. Example conversation using both?

6.18.5.1. A list of legal ones might be nice. Will sre and maw attach to fwa or krr? Other likely
candidates: fpi, mìkam, mungwrr, pxel/na, vay?


6.18.6. Nominalizations as Conjunctions. There are a few Na'vi constructions involving nouns
and the attributive particle that do what English uses conjunctions for. Because of this, what appear
to be identical conjunctions have two forms — one for when the conjunction comes at the
end of a clause, and one for when it comes at the start. Often these phrases have contracted into
one word, sometimes with sound changes.

At the startAt the end
aftermawkrraakrrmawfrom maw krr a
becausetalun(a)aluntafrom ta lun a
becausetaweyk(a)aweyktafrom ta oeyk a
whenkrraa krr
that (as a result)kumaakum
since (from the time)takrraakrrtafrom ta krr a


Section: 6.19. Conditional Sentences

6.19.1. General. General conditions describe situations that are commonly or generally true,
such as "if it doesn't rain, plants and animals suffer." In Na'vi, a general condition takes txo with
the subjunctive in the condition and a non-future indicative in the consequent,
txo fkol ke fyivel
uranit paywä, zene fko slivele if one does not seal a boat against water, one must swim.

6.19.3. Hypothetical. No examples yet.

6.19.4. Contrafactual. No examples yet.


Section: 6.20. Conjunctions

6.20.3. Fu. The conjunction fu, or, may be used to combine either noun phrases or verb phrases.
Ke zasyup lì'Ona ne kxutu a mìfa fu a wrrpa The l'Ona will not perish to the enemy within or the
enemy without.
But no examples of the verb phrase yet...

6.20.7. Tsnì. The conjunction tsnì that introduces some kinds of report clause which cause the
verb to take the subjunctive, ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron I respectfully request the Dream
Hunt
, sìlpey oe tsnì fìtìoeyktìng law livu ngaru set I hope that this explanation is clear to you now.
The verb determines the subjunctive, or the construction?

6.20.7.1. Tsnì seems most often used when intransitive constructions are in the main clause.


Section: 6.22. Particles

6.22.5. Tse. This particle is a marker of conversational hesitation, well. In English "well" relates
to felicity conditions in divergent ways.






Here a check list.

SectionCurrently solved? (yes / no)
Section: 3.2. The Pronounyes (expect 3.2.1. )
Section: 3.3. Prenounsyes (expect 3.3.7. )
Section: 3.4. Correlativesyes (expect 3.4.0.2. )
Section: 4.2. Ordinal Numbersyes (expect 4.4.3.1. )
Section: 5.1. Derivational Affixesyes
Section: 6.1. Transitivity and Ergativityno
Section: 6.2. Noun Phrases and Adjectivesno
Section: 6.5. Adpositionsno
Section: 6.6. Adverbsno
Section: 6.7. Aspect and Tenseno
Section: 6.8. Subjunctiveno
Section: 6.17. Complex Sentencesno
Section: 6.18. Relative Clauses and Phrase Attribution     no
Section: 6.19. Conditional Sentencesno
Section: 6.20. Conjunctionsno
Section: 6.22. Particlesno



Kìyevame ulte Eywa ngahu!

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Blue Elf

Best way is probably to ask wm.annis, as he is author of Horen.
According what I know:
- fray+ was not confirmed until now
- sto was confirmed as modal verb
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Kemaweyan

I think there is not a prefix fray+ in the language. What would it mean? ??? Fra- means «every», but I don't understand the meaning of its plural form :-\
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

eejmensenikbenhet

Quote from: Kemaweyan on March 17, 2013, 05:57:08 PM
I think there is not a prefix fray+ in the language. What would it mean? ??? Fra- means «every», but I don't understand the meaning of its plural form :-\
That is correct, fra- already denotes the noun to be plural.
When you say that *fray+ would denote the plural form, it means that fra- would not.
frapo would then mean all the person and frayfo would be all the persons (everyone).

Another way of saying this: the Na'vi doesn't use double plural forms. Similarly: when you add numbers to your phrase, you don't have to add a prefix to the nou. Example: Menga lu karyu. - You two are teachers.

Kemaweyan

Quote from: eejmensenikbenhet on March 18, 2013, 05:22:38 AM
frapo would then mean all the person and frayfo would be all the persons (everyone).

But «everyone» officially is frapo. So we don't need another word.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

eejmensenikbenhet

Quote from: Kemaweyan on March 18, 2013, 06:19:40 AM
Quote from: eejmensenikbenhet on March 18, 2013, 05:22:38 AM
frapo would then mean all the person and frayfo would be all the persons (everyone).

But «everyone» officially is frapo. So we don't need another word.
True, it was just an example. Frapo is derived from fra+ and po so even though the meaning everyone is used as translation for frapo, the literal meaning is all the persons. (Or even more literal: all the hes/shes.)

Herwìna

Many pa'li where grazing. A thanator attacked them. All of the many pa'li ran.

Would/could you use fray+ in a sentence like this?
Siyevop nga nìzawnong ayukmì, vaykrr oengeyä mefya'o ultxaräpun fìtsap nìmun.

Oe zawng
nga zawng
nìwotx awnga zawng
fte oeti zeykivawng

Ngal yamom fì'ut srak?!

Tìtstewan

Frapa'li yolom. Palulukanìl 'oleko ayfoti. Frayfa'li tolul
Many pa'li where grazing. A thanator attacked them. All of the many pa'li ran.

I think it would work...

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eejmensenikbenhet

Quote from: Herwìna on March 18, 2013, 10:28:23 AM
Many pa'li where grazing. A thanator attacked them. All of the many pa'li ran.

Would/could you use fray+ in a sentence like this?
Quote from: Tìtstewan on March 18, 2013, 10:38:55 AM
Frapa'li yolom. Palulukanìl 'oleko ayfoti. Frayfa'li tolul
Many pa'li where grazing. A thanator attacked them. All of the many pa'li ran.

I think it would work...
Not really...
Frapa'li would just mean all pa'li, expressing a large quantity of something using many involves the word pxay.

Many pa'li were grazing. A thanator attacked them. All of the many pa'li ran.
Pxaya pa'li yolom. Palulukanìl ayfot 'ameko. Frapa'li apxay tolul.

Anyway, the English sentence doesn't make much sense either. "All of the many pa'li" does't sound like a legible clause to me.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Frapa'li yolom. Palulukanìl 'oleko ayfoti. Frapa'li tolul

It gets a lot more complex if you want to say something like 'many pa'li ran'.

There was a long discussion about fray+ some time back. I forget if any conclusion was drawn. There might some very narrow circumstances where there might be enough of a difference to warrant the use of fray+. But in most cases, fra- should work.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Tanri

Hmm...
"Frapa'li tolul" sounds to me like "Every direhorse ran", in the sense of "Each direhorse (one by one, independent from the others) ran".
To express "all of X", I prefer the "X nìwotx" construction: "Pxaya fa'li nìwotx tolul" - literally "All of the many direhorses ran."

The relationship between fra- and plurals is not yet fully explained, so I'd prefer to avoid such a combination.
Tätxawyu akì'ong.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Tanri on March 18, 2013, 03:27:10 PM
Hmm...
"Frapa'li tolul" sounds to me like "Every direhorse ran", in the sense of "Each direhorse (one by one, independent from the others) ran".
To express "all of X", I prefer the "X nìwotx" construction: "Pxaya fa'li nìwotx tolul" - literally "All of the many direhorses ran."

We have two pieces of 'light' on the meaning of fra-, one from the dictionary, 'every', and one from Horen 'all, every'. Things might be more different in Chezch, but in English, there is so little difference in meaning between these words, that they primarily exist to support different syntactical structures. 'All direhorses ran' vs 'every direhorse ran'. The use of the plural with 'all' has more to do with twisted English grammar than with meaning. To suggest that the direhorses acted more or less individually, additional verbiage is required, such as ..., 'aw lisre aw, frapa'li tolul (A bit of the stretch, as we don't have a term for 'by' in the sense used here, and 'one by one' is almost an idiom).

All this said, there is nothing really wrong with X nìwotx, either. It is very close in meaning to fra- X and more flexible in that it can end a phrase. But to me, the reading 'the pa'li ran in total' is a lot more awkward, and implies the pa'li moved as one pa'li. If you watch large animals flee from a predator, it is, at least initally, a ripple effect, rather than a coordinated fleeing. Nìwotx to me means more like 'all loose ends tied up, all details accounted for'.

Quote from: Tanri
The relationship between
i]fra-[/i] and plurals is not yet fully explained, so I'd prefer to avoid such a combination.

It is also not very ambiguous, as the use of {all, every} implies plurality, thus the discussion concerning fray+. In most cases in Na'vi, there is no reason that an established meaning has to be reestablished in a sentence, once it is initially established.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Alyara Arati

Could one use fra- together with nìwotx? ???  Maybe that would indicate each of them. :-\  I think it would give a meaning similar to me+ with nìwotx yielding both.
Learn how to see.  Realize that everything connects to everything else.
~ Leonardo da Vinci

Blue Elf

Quote from: Alyara Arati on March 18, 2013, 10:54:41 PM
Could one use fra- together with nìwotx? ???  Maybe that would indicate each of them. :-\  I think it would give a meaning similar to me+ with nìwotx yielding both.
It is good idea, I think it would work.
With dual, you are completely right:
Quote6.6.6.1. With dual number, the sense of nìwotx is both, mefo nìwotx yolom they both ate.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

I don't see why that construction wouldn't work, as well. It is actually kind of a 'double positive. However, the meaning might be a little much for the example sentence given, as the important message is that all the pa'li fled, and the action of any one pa'li is not that important.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Tirea Aean

And I was/am almost certain about it being tìyomtusìng, not yomtìtusìng.

Blue Elf

Quote from: Tirea Aean on April 03, 2013, 10:19:02 PM
And I was/am almost certain about it being tìyomtusìng, not yomtìtusìng.
Correct. Base word is yomtìng (verb, where all infixes go into tìng part) and tì-<us> works with verbs.
But there is no rule which allows connect verb with noun created using tì-<us>.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tìtstewan

Quote4.2.1.1. Can combine freely with nì-?
Now we know. :)
Ordinals & nume

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Tìtstewan

Quote from: Ftiafpi on July 27, 2013, 03:06:12 PM
Fì + ay will generally turn into fay+ especially in rapid or casual speech but in formal or precise speech it may be fìay+.

However, fra + ay will always be fray+.
Fì'u!
Irayo ma Ftiafpi :)

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Ftiafpi