Author Topic: Rapid speech - ke  (Read 1672 times)

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Offline MIPP

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Rapid speech - ke
« on: December 03, 2010, 03:51:02 am »
Oel ayngati kame, ma eylan,

today I was reading the NiaN guide about the negatives and at the same time I was studying a little bit of French...

As you might know, in French, when you want to negate something, you must put something right after the verb. And the same also happens sometimes with Portuguese.

Examples:

English: I want nothing/I don't want anything.
French: Je ne veux rien.
Portuguese: Eu não quero nada.
Na'vi: Oel ke new ke'ut.

English: I never eat.
French: Je ne mange jamais.
Portuguese: Eu não como nunca/Eu nunca como.
Na'vi: Oe ke yom kawkrr.

English: I see no one/I don't see anyone.
French: Je ne vois personne.
Portuguese: Eu não vejo ninguém.
Na'vi: Oel ke tse'a ketut


So, this is not the most important thing. When speaking, in French, the "ne" usually isn't read and the same happens in Portuguese (similarly):

French: Je veux rien.
Portuguese: Eu n'vejo ninguém.

French: Je mange jamais.
Portuguese: Eu n'como nunca.

French: Je vois personne.
Portuguese: Eu n'vejo ninguém.


So, in Na'vi, couldn't the "ke" be elided in rapid speech?

Examples:

Oel new ke'ut.
Oe yom kawkrr.
Oel tse'a ketut.


I know it must be accepted by Frommer, however I think it is a good idea to suggest it to him as the sentence would lose no sense and it happens with many languages because people always try to find a way to speak faster... Why shouldn't the Na'vi do it to?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 05:10:06 am by MIPP »
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Rapid speech - ke
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2010, 07:27:09 am »
I know it must be accepted by Frommer, however I think it is a good idea to suggest it to him as the sentence would lose no sense and it happens with many languages because people always try to find a way to speak faster... Why shouldn't the Na'vi do it to?

Just as many languages do not do it, however.  Navajo comes to mind (as it often does for me).

Frommer has on several occasions been very clear about this: *oel new ke'ut is an error.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
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Offline Plumps

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Re: Rapid speech - ke
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2010, 09:01:44 am »
Na'vi: Oel ke tse'a ketut

[spoiler ]Notice: I've used the patientive with ke'u and ketu, I am not sure if it is correct or not.

Just for correction’s sake. It’s kawtu ;)

Offline MIPP

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Re: Rapid speech - ke
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2010, 01:07:45 pm »
My fault, ma Plumps.

Ok then, I already know it is an error, I was suggesting that it could be sent to Paul... but seems like he doesn't like it very much  ;D
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 05:51:55 am by MIPP »
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Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: Rapid speech - ke
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2010, 10:40:39 am »
My fault, ma Plumps.

Ok then, I already know it is an error, I was suggesting that it could be sent to Paul... but seems like he doesn't like it very much  ;D

I agree with tsmukan William that the Na'vi likely would not drop ke.  I think it is possible, though, that ke might sometimes elide into the verb when the verb starts with a vowel—that is, drop the -e.  My instinct, though (completely devoid of linguistic training, BTW), is that whether this happens or not depends on where the stress falls in the verb.  For example (and again, totally just going on instinct):

Oe ke omum.
Oe ke olomum.
Oe ke omängum —> ? Oe k-omängum.

But like i said, as i have no linguistics background, it's entirely possible the opposite pattern actually is more likely.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Rapid speech - ke
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2010, 05:04:44 pm »
Ma kì'eyawn, I'd expect to see something similar to what you suggest although I'd probably expect it to be slightly more limited and mainly with verbs starting with a nearby vowel (mainly ä and ì) and even then I'd expect stress on the verb to govern which vowel dominated the other. It's also possible that some allophonic variation might slip in such as a verb ìflen going to kìflen when negated if the stress were on the first syllable but keflen if the stress were on the second or maybe just keflen pronounced normally.
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Offline MIPP

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Re: Rapid speech - ke
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2010, 03:13:15 am »
However, as far as I know, the only elided word, until now, is the final ì, right?
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Rapid speech - ke
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2010, 03:45:19 am »
However, as far as I know, the only elided word, until now, is the final ì, right?

Final "e"s seem to get dropped a bit as do " 'o"s and in the case of tsa'u, even " 'u" when it takes a case ending and "a" in inclusive pronouns e.g. oeng(a), ayoeng(a).
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Offline MIPP

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Re: Rapid speech - ke
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2010, 03:57:28 am »
However, as far as I know, the only elided word, until now, is the final ì, right?

Final "e"s seem to get dropped a bit as do " 'o"s and in the case of tsa'u, even " 'u" when it takes a case ending and "a" in inclusive pronouns e.g. oeng(a), ayoeng(a).

 8)

Then I think the "ke" could be elided sometimes too. Or at least the "e". Of course that if Frommer says no, it's no.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Rapid speech - ke
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2010, 06:42:40 am »
I don't think it would be the vowel being dropped per se and more the "e" merging with the vowel after it.
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