Author Topic: Reflexive or causative in a participle  (Read 3443 times)

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Offline Wllìm

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Reflexive or causative in a participle
« on: August 09, 2014, 02:22:36 pm »
In this thread there was a discussion about whether we can have the reflexive or causative infix inside a participle.

Also, if you have ‹us› and ‹awn›, not only are aspect, tense, intent and mode not possible but the infixes of transitivity as well. ;)
How then would you say stuff like "the bathing animal" and such?
I couldn't find anything in Horen about this, it only says the following:

3.6.3.3. There are only two participle infixes. They do not combine with tense, aspect or mood infixes.

So it doesn't say that reflexive and causative are not to be combined with participles. :-\

So the question is: Can the reflexive and causative infixes occur in a participle?


Okay, the following is just my guess:

I think that it is quite logical to say
  • ioang ay<äp><us>ur the animal that washes itself
(I'd guess that ioang ay<äp><awn>ur is not allowed, namely, I consider y<äp>ur to wash yourself to be an intransitive verb like any other, and with intransitive verbs <awn> does not make sense.)

Also,
  • ioang ay<eyk><us>ur the animal that causes to wash
  • ioang ay<eyk><awn>ur the animal that is caused to wash
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2014, 02:26:10 pm »
No. This would make less than no sense.

<us> Active Participle. This turns a verb into an attributive adjective in the form "The Verbing noun...".
Example: H<us>ahaw-a nantang = A sleeping Viperwolf.

<awn> Passive Participle. This turns a verb into an attributive adjective in the form "The Verbed noun...".
Example: Palulukan a-t<awn>aron lehrrap ke lu = A hunted thanator is not dangerous.

....and this:
Quoted by wm.annis, March 13, 2010 (on the forum).'

    Aylì’u apawnlltxe nìltsan!

    -us- and -awn- are parallel infixes--active and passive participles respectively.

    ioang apuslltxe
    lì'fya apawnlltxe
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 02:31:40 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2014, 02:44:52 pm »
well..we already know we can say this "a bathing animal" as

ioang a yäpur
animal which self-washes

which would actually even be shorter to say than

*ioang ayäpusur

So  I have to wonder if *a-<äp><us> / <äp><us>-a is not redundant as we can translate the meaning not the words in a shorter way.

same goes for <eyk><us>, I think.


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Offline Wllìm

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2014, 02:56:59 pm »
So  I have to wonder if *a-<äp><us> / <äp><us>-a is not redundant as we can translate the meaning not the words in a shorter way.

True, but then we can say as well that all participles are redundant:
ioang a yur / ioang ayusur
animal that washes / washing animal

ioang a yur is shorter... ???
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2014, 03:06:36 pm »
"A bathing animal" would be just ioang ayusur
That <äp> version would be  "a self-bathing animal"

"A washed animal" - ioang ayawnur
vs.
"A self-washed animal" - *ioang ayäpawnur
 ???

*Ioang ayeykusur - "a causing to wash animal"
*Ioang ayeykawnur - " a caused to wash animal"
 ???

The only word which could work are those X säpi words:
lew-säpusia ioang - A (self-)covering animal
lew-säpawnia ioang - A (self-)covered animal

But it feels weird for me...otherwise, question for Pawl

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2014, 03:39:40 pm »
"A bathing animal" would be just ioang ayusur
That <äp> version would be  "a self-bathing animal"

ioang ayusur would be a washing animal. But what is the animal washing? Clearly not his own self, because there is no äp and that infix is what makes the distinction between wash {something else} and wash {self}.

Quote
"A washed animal" - ioang ayawnur
vs.
"A self-washed animal" - *ioang ayäpawnur
 ???

It makes a tiny bit of sense..? :-\

Quote
*Ioang ayeykusur - "a causing to wash animal"
*Ioang ayeykawnur - " a caused to wash animal"
 ???

This I'm not so sure. Seems weird.. Maybe mostly because of the verb chosen.

Quote
The only word which could work are those X säpi words:
lew-säpusia ioang - A (self-)covering animal
lew-säpawnia ioang - A (self-)covered animal

But it feels weird for me...otherwise, question for Pawl

This word work, but animal is a weird word to use there probably HRH :)

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2014, 04:07:46 pm »
Well, in this case "washing" is more like an adjective not a verb...
Oel tse'a ioangit ayusur
I see a washing animal
It's logical that an animal wash itself, also the point is "a washing animal". To put <äp> in the word would make this "more precise". But I see, yur is a weird example.

Oel tse'a ioangit a yäpur.
I see an animal that wash itself.
vs.
Oel tse'a ioangit a yur lahea ioangit
I see an animal that washes another animal.
^
How do you would create the same meaning with an adjective-like used verb?

Quite the same for <awn>
Oel tse'a ioangit ayawnur
I see a washed animal.

It would be obvious to say "a self-washed animal", because the point is, the animal is washed. :)

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2014, 09:00:37 am »
So  I have to wonder if *a-<äp><us> / <äp><us>-a is not redundant as we can translate the meaning not the words in a shorter way.

True, but then we can say as well that all participles are redundant:
ioang a yur / ioang ayusur
animal that washes / washing animal

ioang a yur is shorter... ???
No, this doesn't work as you think.
Ioang a yur is "Animal which washes" (something unspecified thing - object is mising)
Ioang a yäpur is "Animal which washes himself"
Ioang ayusur is "washing animal". Note that this example is not complete sentence (it is just noun + attribute), so we can't decide whether it can replace phrase "Ioang a yur" - context is missing. This example is probably not too good, as "washing animal" is somehow unreal thing ;D
What about this:

Fìfnel ngoayä lu sä'o a yur pxenit - This kind of mud is tool which washes cloth.
Fìfnel ngoayä lu sä'o ayusur a fpi pxen - This kind of mud is washing/cleaning tool for cloth.
Here, in full sentence, these two red usages are interchangeable - both have the same meaning.

I'm still wondering, why people think that if phrase is shorter than another one with the same meaning, it means that long version is wrong or redundant or something. Every construction has its usage and it allow us to say something by different ways. That's why we have synonyms and other "redundant" things ;D
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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2014, 10:48:42 am »
Regarding the <äp> and <us> thing, there is another reason why it would be weird to use it.
As <äp> refers back to the subject, how would this sentence work with <äp>:
Oel tse'a tswusayona ikranit.
I see a flying banshee.
...or,
Oel tse'a yusura Na'vi.
I see a washing Na'vi.

Also, this would case the weird idea to use <äp> in gerunds like *Tìyäpusur lu 'o' - "Self-washing is exciting." hrh

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2014, 12:25:25 pm »
Or would it be that you must say Fwa yäpur lu 'o' ? :-\

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2014, 12:44:49 pm »
Just Tìyusur lu 'o'. is completely ok and enough. :) Because you say, "the action of washing is exciting", there is no need to say "self-washing".
One example with a "self <ver>ing" use which makes sense is this one:
"Ngar lu skäpusa'a 'upxare"
"You have a self-destructing message."
 ;D
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 12:55:37 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2014, 12:50:01 pm »
That would lead me to believe that this is like something out of Mission: Impossible...

You have a self-destructing message.

"This message will self-destruct in five seconds..."

;D ;D

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2014, 02:04:03 pm »
"This message will self-destruct in five seconds..."

;D ;D
^




Ok, I sent an email to Pawl. Lets see if and what he writes back.

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2014, 02:45:47 pm »
I'm still wondering, why people think that if phrase is shorter than another one with the same meaning, it means that long version is wrong or redundant or something. Every construction has its usage and it allow us to say something by different ways. That's why we have synonyms and other "redundant" things ;D
Also, this would case the weird idea to use <äp> in gerunds like *Tìyäpusur lu 'o' - "Self-washing is exciting." hrh
Or would it be that you must say Fwa yäpur lu 'o' ? :-\
Blue Elf had hit the point. There is no need to "outlaw" one of the many possibilities just because it's longest, ugly looking, or so. The subtle differences between them may be useful.
This also means that I cannot say "Tìyäpusur lu 'o'" is illegal just because I didn't see an example of it from Karyu Pawl. It's like the legal system here on Earth: some actions are prohibited by law, doing everything else is OK - even if some of that "everything" is considered awkward for many people.

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2014, 03:19:08 pm »
So you're one who says Everything Goes, unless found incorrect? That's dangerous. You may end up having to unlearn things and relearn them later on. We made this fatal mistake using nume transitively when it was marked as v. It may end up causing a spread of misinformation that will need to be corrected later if it's found incorrect. It's a gamble. But on the other hand, I suppose that the pioneers had to do this to push the boundaries and innovate and promote growth of the language. But then again, why not encounter a boundary and ask about it before assuming correctness until found incorrect?

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2014, 03:24:11 pm »
Not entirely. There already are a boundaries - grammatical mechanisms, whether the text makes any sense or not, and invisible boundaries inside everyone's mind - how far one can go and still be confident on the matter.
Nume is a perfect example - we had used it freely as a verb - both intransitively and transitively, without knowing of its limitations. But we learned them and now we respect them.
It's like evolution of a living organism - the nature tries every possibilities. Some are found dead-ends, and some unfold into a highway to future.
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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2014, 04:41:16 pm »
Or would it be that you must say Fwa yäpur lu 'o' ? :-\

But it makes some sense if you are an animal.... Imagine a palulukan licking tasty yerik blood off of his armor plates, after a meal ;)

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2014, 07:12:08 pm »
Or would it be that you must say Fwa yäpur lu 'o' ? :-\

But it makes some sense if you are an animal.... Imagine a palulukan licking tasty yerik blood off of his armor plates, after a meal ;)

It may be that the only way to say this is

ioang a yäpur -or- yäpur a ioang

We are uncertain if

ioang ayäpusur -or- yäpusur a ioang

are grammatically possible. I wouldn't be sad at all if they are valid.

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2014, 01:11:07 am »
I'm still wondering, why people think that if phrase is shorter than another one with the same meaning, it means that long version is wrong or redundant or something. Every construction has its usage and it allow us to say something by different ways. That's why we have synonyms and other "redundant" things ;D
Also, this would case the weird idea to use <äp> in gerunds like *Tìyäpusur lu 'o' - "Self-washing is exciting." hrh
Or would it be that you must say Fwa yäpur lu 'o' ? :-\
Blue Elf had hit the point. There is no need to "outlaw" one of the many possibilities just because it's longest, ugly looking, or so. The subtle differences between them may be useful.
This also means that I cannot say "Tìyäpusur lu 'o'" is illegal just because I didn't see an example of it from Karyu Pawl. It's like the legal system here on Earth: some actions are prohibited by law, doing everything else is OK - even if some of that "everything" is considered awkward for many people.

Fì’upxare anäpusekx skäpìya’a kay hìkrr ahol.  ;D

Hmm, I don't think <äp> can be used with <us>/<awn>. These two infixes turn verb into adjective, so putting infix into adjective is prohibited action. Same situation occurs with tì + <us> - verb is turned into verbal noun - so no other infixes allowed. That's how I understand it.

On the other hand, Fwa (fko) yäpur lu 'o' looks to me as perfectly correct.
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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2014, 01:41:13 am »
The idea is, what if you put äp in, BEFORE it's made into an adjective using us?

yur (verb)
yäpur (still a verb)
yäpusura (now an attr adj.)

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