Author Topic: Reflexive or causative in a participle  (Read 3111 times)

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2014, 01:48:42 am »
This would be the same logic as putting time, aspect and mood before...which isn't possible.
The thing is, <äp> refers back to the subject, but as it would be used as an adj. with the attributive marker -a-, which refers to the describing noun... We would have a <äp> vs -a- "fight".

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2014, 01:51:14 am »
This would be the same logic as putting time, aspect and mood before...which isn't possible.

..Because <us> occupies the slot of the time and aspect infixes. Moods.. hmm You do have a point there. tswusayeiona doesn't work for me.

Quote
The thing is, <äp> refers back to the subject, but as it would be used as an adj. with the attributive marker -a-, which refers to the describing noun... We would have a <äp> vs -a- "fight".

Double interesting.

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2014, 02:27:34 am »
Tswusayeiona as weird as tsweykusayona, kefyak? ???

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2014, 11:07:27 am »
But since the existing rule does not list the <äp> or <eyk> infixes as not combining with <us> or <awn>, a construction like yäpusur for now is allowable, and should function like an adjective. However, the presence of <äp> or <eyk> seems to make a construction too 'verby' to have much practical use as an adjective. So it might work better to say something like Palulukan yäperur - (The) palulukan (is) cleaning itself.

I wounder if falulukan have raspy tongues? ;)

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2014, 11:17:50 am »
The idea is, what if you put äp in, BEFORE it's made into an adjective using us?

yur (verb)
yäpur (still a verb)
yäpusura (now an attr adj.)
Until now I understood us/awn as special infixes not able to combine with any other. As no such example exists, I need word from authority :)
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2014, 05:43:10 pm »
The idea is, what if you put äp in, BEFORE it's made into an adjective using us?

yur (verb)
yäpur (still a verb)
yäpusura (now an attr adj.)
Until now I understood us/awn as special infixes not able to combine with any other. As no such example exists, I need word from authority :)

This very well could be the case. It would make sense. Because this wouldn't not make sense..

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2014, 05:44:15 pm »
I hope Pawl reply to my email... still waiting.

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2014, 08:48:59 am »
I hope Pawl reply to my email... still waiting.
better to send it via LEP submission IMHO (better chance to not be forgotten)
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2014, 08:52:01 am »
And here I thought the purpose of the Lexical Expansion Project was to Expand the Lexicon.... ::) ;D

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2014, 09:08:39 am »
And here I thought the purpose of the Lexical Expansion Project was to Expand the Lexicon.... ::) ;D
but grammar also :)
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2014, 09:10:16 am »
Maybe the LEP needs a new name...

or maybe the L needs to now stand for Language instead of Lexical ;D

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2014, 04:10:29 pm »
Like any living thing, the LEP has changed with time, and will continue to change.

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2014, 09:19:24 pm »
Like any living thing, the LEP has changed with time, and will continue to change.

Which is probably a good thing, to be able to adapt.

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2014, 04:10:47 pm »
Like any living thing, the LEP has changed with time, and will continue to change.

Which is probably a good thing, to be able to adapt.

Tsawri, oe mllte ngahu

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2014, 05:56:49 pm »
Well, I think, it's totally ok if a person want to ask Pawl about a grammar stuff. The LEP is not the only way. :)

Tsawri, oe mllte ngahu
Tsari, oe mllte ngahu.
^Kefyak?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 08:26:59 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2014, 09:58:50 pm »
Well, I think, it's totally ok if a person want to ask Pawl about a grammar stuff. The LEP is not the only way. :)

If Pawl is comfortable with being asked lots of questions by lots of people ;) That said, this is the only recourse for folks that are not involved with the LEP, and who do not wish to work through them.

Quote from: Tìtstewan
Tsawri, oe mllte ngahu
Tsari, oe mllte ngahu.
^Kefyak?

I clearly see what you are doing here, except tsari isn't a word.

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pamrel si ro [email protected]

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2014, 10:41:04 pm »
Quote from: Tìtstewan
Tsawri, oe mllte ngahu
Tsari, oe mllte ngahu.
^Kefyak?

I clearly see what you are doing here, except tsari isn't a word.

Except it is.

Tì’al lu zoplo a tsari ke tsun txoa livu nìftue.
‘Wastlefulness is an offense that cannot easily be forgiven.’

Slä lu oeru fmawno asìltsan: ye'rìn 'ìyi'a sänume a tsari kllfro' oe;

EDIT: IIRC, tsari is not in the dictionary for the same reason as tsa'uti is not in there.
DOUBLE EDIT: remember this? http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/history-of-tsaw/
TRIPLE EDIT: http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/genitive-case-refinement-declension-of-tsaw/

Ok no more edits ;D ::)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 10:52:19 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2014, 03:35:12 am »
Sorry, I haven’t posted here yet although this whole discussion came about because of a comment I made :-X :-[

All points are valid and I tend to agree with Tanri on the construction of the “self-washing X”. Maybe it’s a property of English, this self- prefix. If I were to use that in a German environment I’d arrive at a very stilted and unnatural sounding „der sich selbst waschende Mann“ – possible, of course! but you wouldn’t hear it very often in a daily conversation ;) :P

If you take the most common explanation of
     (1) ioang atusaron, “hunting animal” = ioang a t(er)aron, “animal that hunts/is hunting”
     (2) ioang atawnaron, “hunted animal” = ioang a fkol taron, “animal that is hunted”
then the circumlocution of (1) of “what” the animal hunts is solved via a subordinate clause. It’s quite logical to me that it doesn’t matter whether this ‘object’ is (in the case of yur, “wash” or tse’a, “see”) something else or the agent itself.

So, for me, the construct of tutan a yäpur “the man who washes himself” is quite natural to me – at least for the time being to avoid a possibly ungrammatical construct. ;)

Where it gets interesting is with intransitive Na’vi verbs where we tend to use transitive ones (and vice versa).

If fra’u latem is “everything changes” (intransitive!), then krr alusatem is “changing time” (i.e., time that changes). But that has to be different from fì’ul tìreyti oeyä leykatem “this changes my life” (transitive!). By this logic “this changing thing” (i.e., the thing that changes (something else)) would be *fì’u aleykusatem, would it not? I think that’s quite logical and another instance where Na’vi would be more specific than English.

Maybe that’s also the reason why I need quite a lot of time to get my head around the past participle example of so’ha (transitive!)
     Sawno’ha ioit kolaneiom oel uvanfa! “I got (won) the prized piece of jewelry in the game!”
because so’ha is translated as “be enthusiastic about, show enthusiasm for, be excited about” it’s very hard for me in this example to get my head into the thinking of the “verb-ed” structure …  ???  how can you if the translation is already something with -ed (albeit an adjective :P ) … … … “the showed-enthusiam-for piece of jewelry”?  ;D

Theoretically, verbs like fnan and wätx could then also have forms like *fnusan or *wawnätx … but what would they mean? :-\
     *tutan afnusan = tutan a fnan, “the man who is good at (what?)” ??? for me that example of the active participle wouldn’t work, whereas this one with the passive participle would:
     tì’usem awawnätx = tì’usem a fkol wätx, “cooking that one is being bad at”

Sorry for getting off topic :P but it’s fun to analyze the language like that.

So, come to think of it, I guess I would like to redefine my statement about reflexive and causative in participles. ;) I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2014, 04:08:28 am »
As I sent my e-mail to Pawl, I also used a German translation for every example. ;D (written in fontsize 8 not to move the point on German xD)


Where it gets interesting is with intransitive Na’vi verbs where we tend to use transitive ones (and vice versa).

If fra’u latem is “everything changes” (intransitive!), then krr alusatem is “changing time” (i.e., time that changes). But that has to be different from fì’ul tìreyti oeyä leykatem “this changes my life” (transitive!). By this logic “this changing thing” (i.e., the thing that changes (something else)) would be *fì’u aleykusatem, would it not? I think that’s quite logical and another instance where Na’vi would be more specific than English.
This is, currently, an unanswered question. It's not known if we can use <eyk>+<us>, also for <eyk>+<awn> (fì'u aleykawnatem - this changed thing)

Btw, I see I should also ask Pawl about this case with <äpeyk> + <us> (<awn> has been ruled out as the <äpeyk> word would be intransitive.)


Quote from: Tìtstewan
Tsawri, oe mllte ngahu
Tsari, oe mllte ngahu.
^Kefyak?

I clearly see what you are doing here, except tsari isn't a word.

Except it is.

EDIT: IIRC, tsari is not in the dictionary for the same reason as tsa'uti is not in there.
One SHOULD (tsar as well) add that word in the dictionary for the same reason as tsal, tsat and tsaw are there.

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