Author Topic: Reflexive or causative in a participle  (Read 3196 times)

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2014, 04:45:18 am »
Part of an answer is already in a comment by Paul on naviteri.org concerning the infix use in zeyko (< zo) and if you write him again, I would make him aware of that lest he should have forgotten about that.

Quote from: Paul, 17 July, 2010
Tsalsungay tsalì’u alu zeykuso lu eyawr. Slä zene fko pivlltxe san zäpeyko sìk. (*Zeykäpo lu keyawr.) Ulte kawkrr ke tsun fko pivlltxe san *zeykeyko!

[…]

The question of how the “pre-first position” infixes relate to each other and to the rest of the infix inventory is important, so I’ll save it for a future post.

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2014, 04:55:06 am »
NICE find! :D Noted!
I'll write this evening to him. :)

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2014, 07:48:33 am »
Quote from: Tìtstewan
Tsawri, oe mllte ngahu
Tsari, oe mllte ngahu.
^Kefyak?

I clearly see what you are doing here, except tsari isn't a word.

Except it is.

EDIT: IIRC, tsari is not in the dictionary for the same reason as tsa'uti is not in there.
One SHOULD (tsar as well) add that word in the dictionary for the same reason as tsal, tsat and tsaw are there.

Touché.


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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2014, 02:14:08 pm »
EDIT: IIRC, tsari is not in the dictionary for the same reason as tsa'uti is not in there.
DOUBLE EDIT: remember this? http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/history-of-tsaw/
TRIPLE EDIT: http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/genitive-case-refinement-declension-of-tsaw/

Ok no more edits ;D ::)

Not to stray too far off topic..... ;)

tsaʼuti is not in the dictionary because it is a the patientive case of tsaʼu, a dictionary word. Normally, cased endings of a word do not appear in the dictionary unless there is some special significance to them. And neither are prefixed versions of words. But tsaʼu (tsa- + ʼu 'thing') is a special case because it is a word of special significance, and was used by K. Pawl. It is also a very old word.

OTOH, we do know (and I know now, because its been years since I read them) from these very old posts that words like tsat(i), tsar(u), tsati are legal words, even though they are combinations of a prefix and a case ending. That tsari is a combination of a prefix and a case ending is why I flagged this as not a word. These special cases really do need to be in the dictionary (and two of them already are-- tsal and tsat) because they break an otherwise fundamental rule, and are attested by K. Pawl.

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2014, 02:58:47 pm »
I love this multi-topic thread ;D ;D ;D

Ma Plumps, message with that reminding sent to Pawl. :)
Set, tìmweypey.

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Reflexive or causative in a participle
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2014, 03:37:58 pm »
EDIT: IIRC, tsari is not in the dictionary for the same reason as tsa'uti is not in there.
DOUBLE EDIT: remember this? http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/history-of-tsaw/
TRIPLE EDIT: http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/genitive-case-refinement-declension-of-tsaw/

Ok no more edits ;D ::)

Not to stray too far off topic..... ;)

tsaʼuti is not in the dictionary because it is a the patientive case of tsaʼu, a dictionary word. Normally, cased endings of a word do not appear in the dictionary unless there is some special significance to them. And neither are prefixed versions of words. But tsaʼu (tsa- + ʼu 'thing') is a special case because it is a word of special significance, and was used by K. Pawl. It is also a very old word.

OTOH, we do know (and I know now, because its been years since I read them) from these very old posts that words like tsat(i), tsar(u), tsati are legal words, even though they are combinations of a prefix and a case ending. That tsari is a combination of a prefix and a case ending is why I flagged this as not a word. These special cases really do need to be in the dictionary (and two of them already are-- tsal and tsat) because they break an otherwise fundamental rule, and are attested by K. Pawl.

I believe it's a case of a contraction, not of a prefix with a case ending. It just looks like a prefix with a case ending.

Tsa'u > tsaw
Tsa'uri > *tsawri > tsari

EDIT: I think tsari and all similar contractions should be in the dictionary like the others. Fwa, tsaw, and tsat are in there.

I'll split this thread into several topics if necessary
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 03:43:02 pm by Tirea Aean »

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