Should

Started by Nyx, October 07, 2010, 01:51:08 PM

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Nyx

I've been wondering how to translate "should" to Na'vi. I guess in some cases it can be covered by "must" or "need" But as I see it, this doesn't only cover obligation but also expectation and advice.

So, "I should go to the forest" could be translated as "oe zene kivä ne na'rìng", nothing really wrong with that. But how would you translate "they should be here by now" or "you should talk to her"? I think "zene" would be too forced and "kin" a little desperate. Any ideas?

kewnya txamew'itan

In the past I'd used zivene following the form of the equivalent Spanish construction deber que -> debería que. Now though, I'm less sure, IIRC, "lu tìkin a" is meant to be weaker than zene so might work.
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Kemaweyan

Once I spoke with Tirea Aean about this. I want to show my thoughts here:

zivene livu = should be
tsivun livu = could be
livu = would be
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Plumps

The ‹iv› variant is probably the best ...

For some time I used zenatse for that but I can't really retrace my thoughts on that ... partly because for me, a sentence like "they should be here by now" expresses that the speaker is unsure about why they are not and the "you should talk to her" has more the feeling of a suggestion to me than a command... but that's just my tì'efu ;)

kewnya txamew'itan

Quote from: Plumps on October 07, 2010, 02:12:01 PM
For some time I used zenatse for that but I can't really retrace my thoughts on that ... partly because for me, a sentence like "they should be here by now" expresses that the speaker is unsure about why they are not and the "you should talk to her" has more the feeling of a suggestion to me than a command... but that's just my tì'efu ;)[/font][/size]

The "should" in the first case is really an "I'd expected that + SBJ" (trying to keep the English as unambiguous as possible) whereas the second is more like we're considering.
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omängum fra'uti

Saying "X should be here by now" seems like it is treading on the line of a counter-factual statement which we don't really have a way to express yet.

For the suggestion aspect, the subjunctive + modal might be ok, but it makes me a little nervous.
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wm.annis

Quote from: omängum fra'uti on October 07, 2010, 03:16:46 PMFor the suggestion aspect, the subjunctive + modal might be ok, but it makes me a little nervous.

Me, too.  It smells rather European, though some non-Euro languages work similarly.

At some point over the weekend we specifically asked Frommer about shoulds, coulds and woulds.  He made some notes and we moved on.

Nyx

Using <iv> sounded pretty good to me, apart from it then being repeated because of the modal verb. But to be honest, European is almost all I know when it comes to grammar. Maybe there'll be some exotic (to me) way to put this.

Quote from: omängum fra'uti on October 07, 2010, 03:16:46 PM
Saying "X should be here by now" seems like it is treading on the line of a counter-factual statement which we don't really have a way to express yet.
I think I read somewhere that <iv> could be used for non-factual statements. Is there a difference between that and a counter-factual? Or was that just speculation?

Thanks for the help :)

wm.annis

Quote from: Nyx on October 07, 2010, 04:49:51 PM
I think I read somewhere that <iv> could be used for non-factual statements. Is there a difference between that and a counter-factual? Or was that just speculation?

There are different sorts of non-factual statements.  There are those that might be realized, and there are those that were once possible but now aren't.

  "He may get sick."   (A non-factual, "possibility" statement, which some languages use a subjunctive for).
  "He would have gotten sick."  (But he didn't, though it was potential once.)

The last sort is a counterfactual, and in many languages is excluded from the subjunctive, because we do actually know something about the situation (tense games and magic particles are more common for this).  That said, some languages do use the subjunctive for both.

Based on what Frommer told us about counterfactual conditions ("If I hadn't done that, I wouldn't be in the hospital now"), I suspect a magic word will be used for Na'vi counterfactuals.  He showed us the beginning of that system, but hasn't worked out all the fiddly bits yet.

Kì'eyawn

Quote from: wm.annis on October 07, 2010, 04:55:12 PM
The last sort is a counterfactual, and in many languages is excluded from the subjunctive, because we do actually know something about the situation (tense games and magic particles are more common for this)...

;D

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wm.annis

Quote from: Kì'eyawn on October 07, 2010, 05:32:04 PMI love you a little.  Just thought you should know.

Um.  We need a little blushing smiley.

Kì'eyawn

Quote from: wm.annis on October 07, 2010, 07:37:25 PM
Quote from: Kì'eyawn on October 07, 2010, 05:32:04 PMI love you a little.  Just thought you should know.

Um.  We need a little blushing smiley.

*Ü*
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Quote from: Kemaweyan on October 07, 2010, 02:04:29 PM
Once I spoke with Tirea Aean about this. I want to show my thoughts here:

zivene livu = should be
tsivun livu = could be
livu = would be

So far, that's looking quite useful.

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Nyx

Quote from: wm.annis on October 07, 2010, 04:55:12 PM
tense games and magic particles
Avada kedavra? (Sorry, couldn't resist) Thanks for the explanation :)