Author Topic: Genitive  (Read 1460 times)

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Offline edmoreira

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« on: January 04, 2010, 05:02:29 pm »
I have been pondering over the uses of the genitive case.

The genitive suffix yä marks a noun (or pronoun) as modifying another noun. What we all know so far is that the genitive case is used for possession (it's a possessive case)
txe'lan oeyä = my heart

However, the genitive case can be used for other things that are not necessary possession.
Different languages may use the genitive as:
1) possessive genitive
2) partitive genitive
3) subjective genitive
4) objective genitive
5) to express origin
6) to express negation
7) to express what something is made of (Note I edited no. 7)
8)classifying or descriptive genitive
and I'm sure some more that i'm missing

1) it is attested to be correct. I was wondering which of the other ones are actually attested to be correct. I'll put examples of how it could be used in Na'vi for that purpose and tell me if you know of any cases where it's used like that

yom tìyomyä
eat of the food (some of the food as opposed to all of the food)
NOTE: omängum fra'uti pointed out that this is attested in the phrase you'll never be of the people
NOTE: Another couple of added examples :
pollltxe     tsa'u Na'viyä pesu
say<past> that Na'vi.GEN who
Who of the Na'vi said that

nga new tìtomyä      srak
you  want food.GEN  question
do you want some food?

3)subjective genitive
Jake fpom sivi  Naytiriyä txoaru
Jake would be happy with Naytiri's forgiveness
(subjective in the sense that if you change the noun txoaru to a verb to forgive then Nytiri would be the subject)

4)objective genitive
tìtslam tìplltxeyä
understanding of the speech
(objective in the sense that if you change the noun tìtslam into the verb tslam then tìplltxe would be the object)
I'm particularly interested in this use since I've been wanting to say something that would require it hehehe

5) origin
oe Pandorayä ke lu
I am not from Pandora

6) Well I think I know it's not used for negation at least not in the same way it's used I think in Russian

7)as in "made of": table of wood (as in the material which is made of is wood)
swizaw vulyä (or) täftxu kìnyä
arrow of branch or  weave of thread
NOTE: Is this also a case of partitive genitive? I wish I were a linguist sometimes. Liking it and reading about it is not enough sometimes :)

sute meiuiayä
people of honor
I think this is attested to be right in
Utral Aymokriyä = Tree of Voices

NOTE: all these uses of the genitive are attested in human languages

Irayo ma smuktu!'
ta Etx

NOTE:The editions are marked on the text
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 06:14:59 pm by edmoreira »

Offline Doolio

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Re: Genitive
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2010, 05:18:00 pm »
well, on a first look, i would say that nearly all those examples exist in my language:)
but, considering na'vi, i am not sure, because we don't have examples from frommer about that. also, it is probable that, while these are indeed attested in human languages, they are rarely all used in a single language. (maybe i am wrong).

however, genitive is a possessive case, as in all those examples he implies possession of some sort - i am not from pandora = i am not pandora's; part of a whole = it is a whole's part, it belongs to a whole. people of honor = honor's people etc etc...

as for the question you ask, i'll let someone more experienced to answer that...
sorry if my futile blabbering was a nuissance, i just threw in my two cents...
...taj rad...

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Genitive
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2010, 05:26:48 pm »
I think #2 is a pretty safe bet as well...

Kawkrr slayu nga Na'viyä hapxì
You will never become part of the people

But in my mind #1 and #2 are closely analogous to each other.

I'm not a linguist so to my eyes, you example for #3 also looks like it's similar to #1, but I think I understand your reason for it being different...  And how #4 is similar but different as well...  But...  It seems to me there would need to be a way to distinguish #3 from #4, either some rule on order, or an additional affix or (Unlikely) helper word/adposition.

Really #3 and #4 are the main ones I see as being an issue.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Hawnuyu atìtse'a

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Re: Genitive
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2010, 02:32:37 am »
#4 could be a possessive gerundive functioning as an objective genitive. Ex: she saw his flying of the ikran; his flying of the ikran is objective, but flying of the ikran is done by him, therefore possession.

Thank you Latin for the help you gave me.
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Offline Alìm Tsamsiyu

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Re: Genitive
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2010, 09:11:20 am »
I think #2 is a pretty safe bet as well...

Kawkrr slayu nga Na'viyä hapxì
You will never become part of the people

But in my mind #1 and #2 are closely analogous to each other.

I don't really think that #2/#3 is attested the same way he is making a conjecture about with that sentence, actually.

You will never become (a) part of the people.

Here it's seems pretty obvious to me that it's possessive genitive, with "a part" being possessed by "the people."

Basically saying the people will never possess him as one of their own.

#2 is similar to this, but the possessive genitive is pointing toward "tu" - person. "Which person of(owned by) the people said that?"

Also, considering there is a word for part, as used in the attested sentence, I don't think #3 will occur like that.
The sentence would be much clearer if you said: Ngal new hapxìt tìyomyä, srak? | Do you want part of the food?

As for the rest, I'm not sure, since IANAL either... :-\
Oeyä ayswizawri tswayon alìm ulte takuk nìngay.
My arrows fly far and strike true.


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