negation

Started by 'eylan na'viyä, March 16, 2010, 03:43:10 PM

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'eylan na'viyä

Kaltxì,
faysìpawmìri oe sìlpey tsnì tsun srung sivi oer ayngal

i hope i got that right and negation works like this

oel ke tìng kea tsat ngeyä ikranur - i dont give that to your ikran but something else
oel ke tìng tsat kea ngeyä ikranur - i dont give that to your ikran but to someones elses ikran
oel ke tìng tsat ngeyä kea ikranur - i dont give that to your ikran but to your pa'li

are there combinations possible? like:

oel ke tìng tsat kea ngeyä kea ikranur - i dont give that to your ikran but to someone else


is it possible to negate adjektives or adverbs
with adverbs its maybe not necessary (i didnt find an example where the negation does not refer to adverb but it might be handled differently in Na'vi?)

if negating adjectives is not possible, could it work like this:

oel ke taron kea ayikranit alor - i dont hunt these beautiful ikrans
oel ke taron ayikranit alor - i dont hunt ikrans that are beautiful but the ugly ones

is there a possibiliy to make a destinction when not negating:

oel taron ayikranit alor - i hunt these beautiful ikrans
oel taron ayikranit alor - i hunt only beautiful ikrans

i assume that this could be done with nì'aw (im not shure if it works with nouns and adjectives)
but only+negation has a different meaning

is there more detailed information than in the wikibook?

Unil Akawng

#1
Kaltxì! Oe fmìsyi fte ngaru srung sivi, slä nga zene ivomum futa sute a txantslusam oeto fìtsengit tok. :)

Quote from: 'eylan na'viyä on March 16, 2010, 03:43:10 PM
i hope i got that right and negation works like this

oel ke tìng kea tsat ngeyä ikranur - i dont give that to your ikran but something else
oel ke tìng tsat kea ngeyä ikranur - i dont give that to your ikran but to someones elses ikran
oel ke tìng tsat ngeyä kea ikranur - i dont give that to your ikran but to your pa'li
I think that's not quite how double negation works in Na'vi (I've tried to explain my understanding of it here).

The first phrase, I think, works fine (but has a bit different meaning from what you've suggested):
oel ke tìng kea tsat ngeyä ikranur - I give no such thing to your ikran (but something else, or nothing at all)

For the second one, I'd get rid of the first ke to obtain
oel ke tìng tsat kea ngeyä ikranur - I give this not to your ikran (but to someone else's, or to someone else)

As for the third one, I'm not sure it will work even with the first ke removed. This is largely based on my intuition however, so please feel free to argue! ;) 
oel ke tìng tsat ngeyä kea ikranur - I give this to your not-ikran

Quote from: 'eylan na'viyä on March 16, 2010, 03:43:10 PM
are there combinations possible? like:

oel ke tìng tsat kea ngeyä kea ikranur - i dont give that to your ikran but to someone else
Again, here triple negation appears to be a bit redundant; probably just oel tìng tsat kea ngeyä ikranur would suffice.

Quote from: 'eylan na'viyä on March 16, 2010, 03:43:10 PM
is it possible to negate adjektives or adverbs
with adverbs its maybe not necessary (i didnt find an example where the negation does not refer to adverb but it might be handled differently in Na'vi?)

if negating adjectives is not possible, could it work like this:

oel ke taron kea ayikranit alor - i dont hunt these beautiful ikrans
oel ke taron ayikranit alor - i dont hunt ikrans that are beautiful but the ugly ones
To obtain "these" you'll need a prefix fay-: Oel ke taron fayikranti alor. Again, here double negation is not necessary.
The second sentence is OK.

To reiterate, please take the above suggestions with a grain of salt. ;) I, like you, am learning. In all probability, soon wm.annis, omängum fra'uti or other linguists of the community will correct my point, and further clarify negation for you.
Tukruhu ne ayoeng zola'u a fkori tukrufa tìyerkup! - Александр Невский
На'ви-русский словарь v.2.09 для jMemorize

'eylan na'viyä

irayo nìtxan, tì'eyngìri ngeyä
relieing on intuition, i think i would have written the some of the sentences without "ke" too, but after i thought a bit about it i got the feeling that the whole matter is far more complex than i thought before. So the negstion system in Na'vi could work completely different in some situations.

Quote from: Unil Akawng on March 17, 2010, 04:55:37 AM
Kaltxì! Oe fmìsyi fte ngaru srung sivi, slä nga zene ivomum futa sute a txantslusam oeto fìtsengit tok. :)

Quote from: 'eylan na'viyä on March 16, 2010, 03:43:10 PM
i hope i got that right and negation works like this

oel ke tìng kea tsat ngeyä ikranur - i dont give that to your ikran but something else
oel ke tìng tsat kea ngeyä ikranur - i dont give that to your ikran but to someones elses ikran
oel ke tìng tsat ngeyä kea ikranur - i dont give that to your ikran but to your pa'li
I think that's not quite how double negation works in Na'vi (I've tried to explain my understanding of it here).

The first phrase, I think, works fine (but has a bit different meaning from what you've suggested):
oel ke tìng kea tsat ngeyä ikranur - I give no such thing to your ikran (but something else, or nothing at all)

For the second one, I'd get rid of the first ke to obtain
oel ke tìng tsat kea ngeyä ikranur - I give this not to your ikran (but to someone else's, or to someone else)

As for the third one, I'm not sure it will work even with the first ke removed. This is largely based on my intuition however, so please feel free to argue! ;) 
oel ke tìng tsat ngeyä kea ikranur - I give this to your not-ikran
maybe both are possible:
without ke: you dont give anything/to anyone
with ke: you give something/to someone else
Quote from: Unil Akawng on March 17, 2010, 04:55:37 AM
about your translation for the third example:
i think its a difference if you say "not to your ikran" or "to your not-ikran"
maybe the second would look like this "ke-ikran" -->i forgot to mention oposites in my first post


Quote from: 'eylan na'viyä on March 16, 2010, 03:43:10 PM
are there combinations possible? like:

oel ke tìng tsat kea ngeyä kea ikranur - i dont give that to your ikran but to someone else
Again, here triple negation appears to be a bit redundant; probably just oel tìng tsat kea ngeyä ikranur would suffice.
I added the independent negation for the genitive for the sake of completeness although i know that a tripple (or with double genitive even 4times) negation would sound strange. But it has a different meaning wich, in the languages i know, is expressed by stress.
Another theory: this can be expressed by word order

oel tìng tsat kea ngeyä ikranur - i dont give that to your ikran but to someone else
oel tìng tsat ngeyä kea ikranur - i dont give that to your ikran but to someone else
but
oel tìng tsat ikranur kea ngeyä - I give this not to your ikran (but to someone elses ikran)
Quote from: Unil Akawng on March 17, 2010, 04:55:37 AM
Quote from: 'eylan na'viyä on March 16, 2010, 03:43:10 PM
is it possible to negate adjektives or adverbs
with adverbs its maybe not necessary (i didnt find an example where the negation does not refer to adverb but it might be handled differently in Na'vi?)

if negating adjectives is not possible, could it work like this:

oel ke taron kea ayikranit alor - i dont hunt these beautiful ikrans
oel ke taron ayikranit alor - i dont hunt ikrans that are beautiful but the ugly ones
To obtain "these" you'll need a prefix fay-: Oel ke taron fayikranti alor. Again, here double negation is not necessary.
The second sentence is OK.

To reiterate, please take the above suggestions with a grain of salt. ;) I, like you, am learning. In all probability, soon wm.annis, omängum fra'uti or other linguists of the community will correct my point, and further clarify negation for you.

the translation with the "these" is a bit misleading - i just wanted to express the 2 negation concepts. in this sentence fay- sounds reasonable, maybe i should have left it out:
according to the first comment in this post i also added one na'vi sentence:
oel ke taron kea ayikranit alor - i dont hunt beautiful ikrans (i think they are all beautiful and i dont hunt any)
oel taron kea ayikranit alor -  i dont hunt beautiful ikrans but other animals
oel ke taron ayikranit alor - i dont hunt beautiful ikrans but the ugly ones


I forgot something else:

if ke can be used to make oposites this would make it even more complicated.
is there only ke used? is the ke always added to the word? does it work with nouns adjectives and adverbs?

Uff, i didnt think that negation could be that complex. In the languages i know, most of these concepts are understood out of the context and stress. i hope these theories are not too confusing. i tried to write them down as logiacally and structured as possible. If i made an logical error, forgot or dublicated somethin please let me know.

And allthough i think our knowledge is far from being able to give a shure translation for all examples, are there some of them already clear depending on what we know today?