Author Topic: Stacking modal verbs  (Read 1724 times)

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Offline Muzer

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Stacking modal verbs
« on: November 02, 2010, 06:02:01 pm »
I don't need this for anything, this is completely out of interest.

Are modal verbs stackable? That is to say, can you do this:

Oe zene tsivun fìkem sivi

"I must be able to do this"

...? Or don't we know?
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[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2010, 06:10:11 pm »
it doesnt sound right to me.

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2010, 06:16:42 pm »
I think it's possible :) Other example:

  Oe zene fmivi fìkem sivi.
  I must try to do it.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2010, 06:33:22 pm »
I think it's possible :) Other example:

  Oe zene fmivi fìkem sivi.
  I must try to do it.

hmmm... fmi strikes me somehow differently from new tsun zene(or does it)

waht about

oe tsun zivene tsakem sivi (i can must do that? i am able to have to do taht?)
oe zene nivew tsakem sivi (i must want to do that?)

it seems a stretch(sometimes even a STREEEEEEETCH) but it MAY be possible.

also this:

tsun oe zivene. a hair ambiguous perhaps, but <iv> kinda gets rid of ambiguity. what does this mean? i can must...
zene oe tsivun. the reverse. is there a difference in meaning? likely.

It doesnt seem generalizable. things like zene fmivi and zene tsivun or new tsivun(oel new futa tsivun) might be more common, but things like tsun zivene are probably as weird as they are in english, but i could be wrong?

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2010, 06:47:05 pm »
waht about

oe tsun zivene tsakem sivi (i can must do that? i am able to have to do taht?)
oe zene nivew tsakem sivi (i must want to do that?)

Yeah, it seems strange.. But what are you thinking about this:

  Oe zene tsivun 'iveyng sìpawmìri nìwotx.
  I must be able to answer all questions.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2010, 08:38:02 pm »
If stacking modal verbs doesn't seem right, what is/might be wrong? Is a question of breaking some rule I'm missing, or is it something more stylistic or 'cultural'?

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2010, 08:59:41 pm »
If stacking modal verbs doesn't seem right, what is/might be wrong? Is a question of breaking some rule I'm missing, or is it something more stylistic or 'cultural'?

probably mostly me not being used to doing it. dont think its wrong until its proven wrong, but the same can be said the other way: its not right without proof either i guess

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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2010, 01:43:55 am »
This might be worthy of note...

For me, I am seeing double-modal patterns with zene/zenke on the inside to seem a bit funky and unusual, as Tirea Aean pointed out, but not impossible.

I can even see a maximalist example to be possible and make sense, just so long as zen(k)e is in the front: Oe zivene tsivun fmivi kivan nivew sngivä'i tsakem sivi...

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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2010, 02:44:18 am »
I see no reason why it shouldn't be possible provided the phrase makes sense syntactically. Reasonable seeming examples:

tsun oe nivew ke tivaron
new oe zivene tsakem sivi
txo ______ tsakrr tsivun oe zivene tsakem sivi
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 02:54:06 am by kewnya txamew'itan »
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2010, 08:02:50 am »
where are we getting could and should from?

we dont have would could should?

anyway yeah i would agree with Purple here.

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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2010, 12:34:37 pm »
We don't have would and could, in my example where I used "could" that was a simple conditional (or subjunctive in na'vi) form of tsun/can which is best translated into English as "could". That said, I am a fan of using tsivun for could generally and had been for zivene being should too until I discovered that "lu X-ru tìkin a" can also be used for obligations.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 12:36:13 pm by kewnya txamew'itan »
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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Stacking modal verbs
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2010, 11:04:39 pm »
I see no reason why it shouldn't be possible provided the phrase makes sense syntactically. Reasonable seeming exampels:

tsun oe nivew ke tivaron
new oe zivene tsakem sivi
txo ______ tsakrr tsivun oe zivene tsakem sivi

There is the other half of my point on how zene/zenke can make sense if used more internally.  Irayo....

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