Author Topic: Triple negative?  (Read 2354 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ataeghane

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • Posts: 1058
  • Karma: 32
Triple negative?
« on: December 27, 2010, 03:37:05 pm »
We know double negatives are possible in Na'vi (they are even required), but what happens if we need triple negatives?

Sentences like that are puzzling:

I have never eaten anything.
Kawkrr ke yolom oel ke'ut.


He didn't tell any word to her at all.
Ke poleng poanìl kea lì'ut poeru kaw'it.


We can even have fourfold negatives!

He never told a word to her at all!
Ke poleng kawkrr poanìl kea lì'ut poeru kaw'it!


Fivefold!

No one never told a word to her at all!
Ke poleng kawkrr kawtul kea lì'ut poeru kaw'it!


What do you think about it? Tì'efumì oeyä, these sentences are allowed, because other languages using double negatives allow their speakers to construct things like that. But that's just my supposition.

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6135
  • Karma: 221
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Triple negative?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2010, 04:10:53 pm »
Mllte ngaru.
Totally valid.

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: Triple negative?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2010, 04:12:29 pm »
Mllte kop ;)
Also agree ;)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Ataeghane

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • Posts: 1058
  • Karma: 32
Re: Triple negative?
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2010, 04:43:37 pm »
Oh, thx. It's just fun to say ke poleng kawkrr kawtul kea lì'ut kawtur kawtseng kaw'it ;). (sevenfold!)

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Offline wm.annis

  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3074
  • Karma: 143
  • Translate the meaning, not the words!
Re: Triple negative?
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2010, 04:44:47 pm »
Mllte nìteng — this is usual in languages with pleonastic negation.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Eyawng te Klltepayu

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 531
  • Karma: 8
Re: Triple negative?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2010, 05:04:10 pm »
So what happens if I want to say 'I can not lie?' I cannot say things that are not true. Won't that look like I'm saying 'I cannot tell the truth' and using two negatives for emphasis?
Please tell me if you see mistakes in a Na'vi post of mine. It's the only way I'll learn. :P

Kan oe trro fnivan lì'fyat leNa'vi frapoto a foru ke sunängu rel arusikx alu Uniltìrantokx.

Offline wm.annis

  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3074
  • Karma: 143
  • Translate the meaning, not the words!
Re: Triple negative?
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2010, 05:08:06 pm »
So what happens if I want to say 'I can not lie?' I cannot say things that are not true. Won't that look like I'm saying 'I cannot tell the truth' and using two negatives for emphasis?

Nope.  Pleonastic negation doesn't jump across clause boundaries, and "I cannot say things that are not true" is two clauses:

  Ke tsun oe pivlltxe aylì'uti a ke lu ngay.
  I cannot say words which are not true.

The attributive clause, a ke lu ngay, starts the whole negation pile-up over from scratch.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline 'Oma Tirea

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3874
  • Karma: 50
  • Na'vi... sleru... rusti...
Re: Triple negative?
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2010, 12:49:56 am »
Mllte nìteng — this is usual in languages with pleonastic negation.

Ah pleonastic negation: the thing that when carried over to English has a reputation of driving native English speakers up a wall :P

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9891
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: Triple negative?
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2010, 05:10:14 pm »
Mllte nìteng — this is usual in languages with pleonastic negation.

Ah pleonastic negation: the thing that when carried over to English has a reputation of driving native English speakers up a wall :P



are you kidding? there are MANY native English speakers who just talk like that! go down south for a day HRH. even a few miles out west from me people talk like that with pleonastic negation in the style of "aint nuthn nobody cant do if they put their mind to it" hrh :P

the sevenfold is interesting.

Mllte nìteng — this is usual in languages with pleonastic negation.
--Noted.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 05:13:43 pm by Tirea Aean »

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://tirearadio.com/podcast
Learn Na'vi Discord Chat: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline wm.annis

  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3074
  • Karma: 143
  • Translate the meaning, not the words!
Re: Triple negative?
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2010, 05:13:54 pm »
are you kidding? there are MANY native English speakers who just talk like that! go down south for a day HRH. even a few miles out west from me people talk like that with pleonastic negation in the style of "I aint doin nuthn i dont wanna do. an there aint nobody gonna tell me otherwise." hrh :P

In some ways, this is more authentic.  The rules about not using double negatives in English are highly artificial.  Pleonastic negation was the rule for a long, long time, until some stodgy schoolmasters decided English needed to be more like Latin.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9891
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: Triple negative?
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2010, 05:17:39 pm »
are you kidding? there are MANY native English speakers who just talk like that! go down south for a day HRH. even a few miles out west from me people talk like that with pleonastic negation in the style of "I aint doin nuthn i dont wanna do. an there aint nobody gonna tell me otherwise." hrh :P

In some ways, this is more authentic.  The rules about not using double negatives in English are highly artificial.  Pleonastic negation was the rule for a long, long time, until some stodgy schoolmasters decided English needed to be more like Latin.

some seem to think language is like mathematics. a negative times a negative makes a positive. well i say that this kind of negation is more like addition. where a negative added to a negative is still negative...

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://tirearadio.com/podcast
Learn Na'vi Discord Chat: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline wm.annis

  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3074
  • Karma: 143
  • Translate the meaning, not the words!
Re: Triple negative?
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2010, 05:18:52 pm »
some seem to think language is like mathematics.

This is a desperately wrong way to think about language.  ;)
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline 'Oma Tirea

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3874
  • Karma: 50
  • Na'vi... sleru... rusti...
Re: Triple negative?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2010, 12:03:20 am »
some seem to think language is like mathematics.

This is a desperately wrong way to think about language.  ;)

There could be worse...

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4757
  • us United States
  • Karma: 44
  • Palulukan alu Kenya 06/23/1996 - 01/15/2017
    • The Lionlamb website
Re: Triple negative?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2010, 12:32:49 am »
Oh man! I knew a time would come when the tone of the posts in the forum would turn negative  :o

I wish language was like mathematics. Then, I would probably be fluent in ten languages.

But maybe it is the complexities and subtleties of language that makes it interesting and/or beautiful.

So back on topic. Is this a proper use of double negatives? If not, why?

Oe ke tsun ke `ivi`a  fìtìkangkem

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro eylan.falulukana@gmail.com

Offline Ataeghane

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • Posts: 1058
  • Karma: 32
Re: Triple negative?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2010, 06:07:18 am »
I think we don't use negative again after negated modal verb.

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy
| XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, LightStorm Entertainment or The Walt Disney Company.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi