Triple negative?

Started by Ataeghane, December 27, 2010, 03:37:05 PM

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Ataeghane

We know double negatives are possible in Na'vi (they are even required), but what happens if we need triple negatives?

Sentences like that are puzzling:

I have never eaten anything.
Kawkrr ke yolom oel ke'ut.


He didn't tell any word to her at all.
Ke poleng poanìl kea lì'ut poeru kaw'it.


We can even have fourfold negatives!

He never told a word to her at all!
Ke poleng kawkrr poanìl kea lì'ut poeru kaw'it!


Fivefold!

No one never told a word to her at all!
Ke poleng kawkrr kawtul kea lì'ut poeru kaw'it!


What do you think about it? Tì'efumì oeyä, these sentences are allowed, because other languages using double negatives allow their speakers to construct things like that. But that's just my supposition.

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

Plumps


Kemaweyan

Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Ataeghane

Oh, thx. It's just fun to say ke poleng kawkrr kawtul kea lì'ut kawtur kawtseng kaw'it ;). (sevenfold!)

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.

wm.annis

Mllte nìteng — this is usual in languages with pleonastic negation.

Eyawng te Klltepayu

So what happens if I want to say 'I can not lie?' I cannot say things that are not true. Won't that look like I'm saying 'I cannot tell the truth' and using two negatives for emphasis?
Please tell me if you see mistakes in a Na'vi post of mine. It's the only way I'll learn. :P

Kan oe trro fnivan lì'fyat leNa'vi frapoto a foru ke sunängu rel arusikx alu Uniltìrantokx.

wm.annis

Quote from: Eyawng te Klltepayu on December 27, 2010, 05:04:10 PM
So what happens if I want to say 'I can not lie?' I cannot say things that are not true. Won't that look like I'm saying 'I cannot tell the truth' and using two negatives for emphasis?

Nope.  Pleonastic negation doesn't jump across clause boundaries, and "I cannot say things that are not true" is two clauses:

  Ke tsun oe pivlltxe aylì'uti a ke lu ngay.
  I cannot say words which are not true.

The attributive clause, a ke lu ngay, starts the whole negation pile-up over from scratch.

'Oma Tirea

Quote from: wm.annis on December 27, 2010, 04:44:47 PM
Mllte nìteng — this is usual in languages with pleonastic negation.

Ah pleonastic negation: the thing that when carried over to English has a reputation of driving native English speakers up a wall :P

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Tirea Aean

#8
Quote from: Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea on December 28, 2010, 12:49:56 AM
Quote from: wm.annis on December 27, 2010, 04:44:47 PM
Mllte nìteng — this is usual in languages with pleonastic negation.

Ah pleonastic negation: the thing that when carried over to English has a reputation of driving native English speakers up a wall :P



are you kidding? there are MANY native English speakers who just talk like that! go down south for a day HRH. even a few miles out west from me people talk like that with pleonastic negation in the style of "aint nuthn nobody cant do if they put their mind to it" hrh :P

the sevenfold is interesting.

Quote from: wm.annis on December 27, 2010, 04:44:47 PM
Mllte nìteng — this is usual in languages with pleonastic negation.
--Noted.

wm.annis

Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 28, 2010, 05:10:14 PMare you kidding? there are MANY native English speakers who just talk like that! go down south for a day HRH. even a few miles out west from me people talk like that with pleonastic negation in the style of "I aint doin nuthn i dont wanna do. an there aint nobody gonna tell me otherwise." hrh :P

In some ways, this is more authentic.  The rules about not using double negatives in English are highly artificial.  Pleonastic negation was the rule for a long, long time, until some stodgy schoolmasters decided English needed to be more like Latin.

Tirea Aean

Quote from: wm.annis on December 28, 2010, 05:13:54 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 28, 2010, 05:10:14 PMare you kidding? there are MANY native English speakers who just talk like that! go down south for a day HRH. even a few miles out west from me people talk like that with pleonastic negation in the style of "I aint doin nuthn i dont wanna do. an there aint nobody gonna tell me otherwise." hrh :P

In some ways, this is more authentic.  The rules about not using double negatives in English are highly artificial.  Pleonastic negation was the rule for a long, long time, until some stodgy schoolmasters decided English needed to be more like Latin.

some seem to think language is like mathematics. a negative times a negative makes a positive. well i say that this kind of negation is more like addition. where a negative added to a negative is still negative...

wm.annis

Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 28, 2010, 05:17:39 PMsome seem to think language is like mathematics.

This is a desperately wrong way to think about language.  ;)

'Oma Tirea

Quote from: wm.annis on December 28, 2010, 05:18:52 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 28, 2010, 05:17:39 PMsome seem to think language is like mathematics.

This is a desperately wrong way to think about language.  ;)

There could be worse...

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Oh man! I knew a time would come when the tone of the posts in the forum would turn negative  :o

I wish language was like mathematics. Then, I would probably be fluent in ten languages.

But maybe it is the complexities and subtleties of language that makes it interesting and/or beautiful.

So back on topic. Is this a proper use of double negatives? If not, why?

Oe ke tsun ke `ivi`a  fìtìkangkem

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Ataeghane

I think we don't use negative again after negated modal verb.

Oer wivìntxu ngal oey keyeyt krr a tse'a sat. Frakrr.