Author Topic: Stephen Lang will be back  (Read 2897 times)

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Offline archaic

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2013, 04:34:56 pm »
I suspect there is a means of 'maintaining' inactive avatars.
Like placing it in an amnio tank?
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Offline Clarke

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2013, 07:27:53 pm »
I suspect there is a means of 'maintaining' inactive avatars.
Well, everyone thinks she's dead, and there's presumably no precedent of people being ressurected.

Offline Niri Te

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2013, 07:35:45 pm »
I suspect there is a means of 'maintaining' inactive avatars.
Well, everyone thinks she's dead, and there's presumably no precedent of people being ressurected.

 Well the only thing that pushes a "resurrection" real hard, is the Christian Bible, and most people don't put much stock in that, So I don't think there is much precedent for anyone getting "Resurrected".
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 07:40:29 pm by Niri Te »
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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2013, 08:54:29 pm »
Well, everyone thinks she's dead, and there's presumably no precedent of people being resurrected.
But since we're wildly speculating...  here's my quasi-theory...

We know that individual consciousness and memories (ie "all that she is...") can be transferred.  Interesting that Mo'at believed so because exactly what would a Na'vi transfer "into"?  IE... how is this possible?  This also leads me to pose the question, have any Na'vi gone into Eywa to connect/bond, and fail to return into their physical body?  I think the answer to this is "yes" otherwise Mo'at wouldn't have said "she must pass through the eye of Eywa, and return".  Thus I think that precedent did exist for what I've just listed.  The question becomes, how long a delay (which might be up to a couple/few days for a body without water).

Thus for argument's sake, and sci-fi theorizing..., my questions would be:

1)  How is an Avatar body maintained when not connected?  It's a living, breathing organic "body".  A body can exist without higher brain function.  But it needs to be "fed", and cared for.  (Obviously kept clean.)  And we won't get into muscular atrophy nor bed sores for lying motionless and without muscle use for extended periods of time.  I like the idea of possibly putting an avatar body back into some sort of amniotic fluid (the tube chamber).  Although I'm less than ideal on putting lungs accustomed to air back into liquid again.  (Cues up the old "The Deep Abyss" film where this was sci-fi created for ultra deep water diving.)  Thus, for speculation, how long can an avatar body realistically survive without higher brain function?  This is kinda where the link system comes into play... ie how does the link room/system know which avatar to connect to?  (Also poses the wild thought... can the link system still mess with Jake even though he's permanently transferred his consciousness?)

Thus.  If the above is "possible" in Cameron's mind, then if Grace really did "come to the surface" and say she was willing to come back into the physical world, then bonding her (still alive) avatar body to Eywa might be theoretically possible.  Even if a seriously wild and far fetched idea, provided her avatar body was maintained...

2)  The other question I posed to Alyara the other night...  Was about Norm.  We know his avatar was mortally killed.  But I had a wild thought.  Would it be possible to clone it?  Seriously, the genetic blending of dna has been worked out.  And if the "science" of genetics figured out how to blend Na'vi and earth/human dna, cloning is a simpler task.  Plus, you have scientists like Max who are genetic specialists already there on Pandora.  If the grow/development tubes weren't already all loaded back onto the shuttles and put into orbit (where they might actually bring them back down to make space for all the off-world departures) .  Thus the question really is..., manufacturing the amniotic fluid which was cleaned out.  It just leads to imagine a crazy idea that (if you were staying on Pandora for the rest of your life and not going back to Earth...) wouldn't you give it a shot?  Thus whether or how long cloneable dna is viable, is an interesting question.  Even if it might take you another 6-7 years to find out if a successful clone was created.  Again, just a wild idea that has not been suggested or proposed.  Just where my mind wandered off to...   ::)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 07:27:30 am by Taronyu Leleioae »

Offline archaic

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2013, 05:19:53 am »
I suspect there is a means of 'maintaining' inactive avatars.
Well, everyone thinks she's dead, and there's presumably no precedent of people being ressurected.

 Well the only thing that pushes a "resurrection" real hard, is the Christian Bible, and most people don't put much stock in that, So I don't think there is much precedent for anyone getting "Resurrected".
Non-Christian religions contain resurrection stories, precedent for this is wide spread! So here's just a couple .....
 
Ancient Greek religion, refers to men and women who were resurrected from the dead, and generally made immortal too. Sometimes this was linked to apotheosis/deification.
Asclepius (killed by Zeus) was resurrected and transformed into a major deity.
Memnon, king of Ethiopian, son of Tithonus and Eos (killed by Achilles) Zeus was moved by Eos' tears, resurrected him and made him an immortal.
Aristeas of Proconnesus (Greek sage, circa sixth or seventh century BC) while visiting a fuller, he dropped dead, and was locked in the workshop. The fuller informs the family and news spreads across the town, only to be strenuously denied by  visiting dignitary (from Cyzicene) had met and spoken with Aristeas at length on the road from Artaca.

Sambandar (Hindu saint, circa seventh century ad) sings a pathigam (Hindu hymn) to resurrect the beautiful daughter of a wealthy businessman, Poompavai from earthen pot full of her bones and ashes, twelve years after her death. He offers him her hand in marriage he refuses knowing her resurrection would be short term. Pretty sure Sambandar resurrected someone else, can't find any details on line.

Bodhidharma (Buddhist monk, circa fifth or sixth century ad) credited with teaching the Shaolin monks their techniques. Three years after Bodhidharma's death, Song Yun is said to have seen him walking barefoot, holding one sandal, when asked Bodhidharma said he was going home. The Shaolin monks opened the grave, there was no body, just a dingle sandal.

Zombie, more correctly nzumbe in the Bantu language of north-west Angola, a resurrected or reanimated corpse. Made poplar and misrepresented in contemporary media, Vodun (pronounced vodṹ) means 'spirit.


Then there are documented instances of spontaneous resurrection, where people are misdiagnosed as dead. For instance .....
Brighton Dama Zanthe's funeral has been delayed in Zimbabwe, Family and friends attending his funeral were were filing past a coffin when one of them noticed the dead man’s legs twitching, an ambulance was immediately. He was placed on life support in hospital and later regained conciseness, he is quoted as saying "I feel OK now,"

A British scientist studying heart attack patients says he is finding evidence that suggests that consciousness may continue after the brain has stopped functioning and a patient is clinically dead. Similar results have been reported in rats and salmon.



Just saying.
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Offline 'Itan Atxur

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2013, 06:09:25 am »
He was quoted as saying "I'm okay now"... epic!!

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Offline Clarke

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2013, 11:39:04 am »
Well, everyone thinks she's dead, and there's presumably no precedent of people being resurrected.
But since we're wildly speculating...  here's my quasi-theory...

We know that individual consciousness and memories (ie "all that she is...") can be transferred.  Interesting that Mo'at believed so because exactly what would a Na'vi transfer "into"?  IE... how is this possible?  This also leads me to pose the question, have any Na'vi gone into Eywa to connect/bond, and fail to return into their physical body?  I think the answer to this is "yes" otherwise Mo'at wouldn't have said "she must pass through the eye of Eywa, and return".  Thus I think that precedent did exist for what I've just listed.  The question becomes, how long a delay (which might be up to a couple/few days for a body without water).

Thus for argument's sake, and sci-fi theorizing..., my questions would be:

1)  How is an Avatar body maintained when not connected?  It's a living, breathing organic "body".  A body can exist without higher brain function.  But it needs to be "fed", and cared for.  (Obviously kept clean.)  And we won't get into muscular atrophy nor bed sores for lying motionless and without muscle use for extended periods of time.  I like the idea of possibly putting an avatar body back into some sort of amniotic fluid (the tube chamber).  Although I'm less than ideal on putting lungs accustomed to air back into liquid again.  (Cues up the old "The Deep" film where this was sci-fi created for ultra deep water diving.)  Thus, for speculation, how long can an avatar body realistically survive without higher brain function?  This is kinda where the link system comes into play... ie how does the link room/system know which avatar to connect to?
Indefinitely, if it's anything like humans... if you put it on life support. I'm concerned that there's no reason for people to do that, if it doesn't occur to anyone that Grae could be retrieved from Eywa.

Quote
(Also poses the wild thought... can the link system still mess with Jake even though he's permanently transferred his consciousness?)
Well, everyone with the correct genetics to operate that Avatar is dead.  ;)

Quote
2)  The other question I posed to Alyara the other night...  Was about Norm.  We know his avatar was mortally killed.  But I had a wild thought.  Would it be possible to clone it?  Seriously, the genetic blending of dna has been worked out.  And if the "science" of genetics figured out how to blend Na'vi and earth/human dna, cloning is a simpler task.  Plus, you have scientists like Max who are genetic specialists already there on Pandora.  If the grow/development tubes weren't already all loaded back onto the shuttles and put into orbit (where they might actually bring them back down to make space for all the off-world departures) .  Thus the question really is..., manufacturing the amniotic fluid which was cleaned out.  It just leads to imagine a crazy idea that (if you were staying on Pandora for the rest of your life and not going back to Earth...) wouldn't you give it a shot?  Thus whether or how long cloneable dna is viable, is an interesting question.  Even if it might take you another 6-7 years to find out if a successful clone was created.  Again, just a wild idea that has not been suggested or proposed.  Just where my mind wandered off to...   ::)
I think several fanfics use this idea to let Norm interact with the Na'vi again.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 11:43:50 am by Clarke »

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2013, 03:10:42 am »
Since it is unknown when an avatar will be linked to its driver, the avatar has to be able to maintain low level life functions. It can probably function without any special care for a couple days. But it will need food, water, etc. There is probably a way to control the avatar to enable it to drink, and maybe even eat. Food and water might even be given through some sort of an 'IV' connection. So, I see a strong case that something like this is built into an avatar. I don't think it involves going all the way back to the amino tank, though. That is impractical for day-to-day operations.

It was the James Cameron film 'The Abyss' that featured the fluid breathing suits. Interestingly, this was my favorite film for quite a few years.

Link interference? I hadn't thought about that. Its possible that when Eywa rewires the brain of the avatar, that the remote control function is disabled. The nature of the link is another subject entirely. I don't think it is radio as we understand it. if it was, Colonel Quaritch would have been able to easily 'jam' it with technology readily available to him.

I suspect that most or all of the Na'vi brain has to be present for the avatar to work. therefore, it is relatively easy to 'map' a real conscience into that brain. I suspect there are some advantages and limitations though, to the avatar brain vs a real Naʼvi.

I really don't know the state of Grace's avatar. It is possible the failed attempt to map her conscience into her avatar killed the avatar. But I also suspect it may not have, for the sake of the next films. It would have had to be put on 'unlinked support' as discussed above, or taken back to Hell's Gate for longer term storage (which I also think is possible, and that may mean the amino tanks.) The fact that this was possible tells me that 'soul re-mapping' sis something that the Naʼvi have done in the past. Only James Cameron knows for sure.

As far as I remember, Norm took a shoulder shot, that is not likely immediately lethal. But certainly painful enough that it forced him to break the link. (Where did Norm go after that scene?) So, his avatar could have been taken back to Hell's Gate for 'repair'.

One thing is for sure. for a technology as complex as an avatar, we had to by thsat time, be much better at 'fixing bodies' than we are today!

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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2013, 06:42:18 pm »
I came across an interesting set of links when I was looking at the latest post that CyanRachel posted about Pandora Blue Prints for Walt Disney World (Florida).  On the side of the page had 4 other links to recent Avatar film discussions.  One was how a very recent comparison by a Yahoo News writer regarding Avatar vs Apocalypse Now in terms of shooting angles, shooting scenes out of cockpits and the destruction of the landscape.  The link to the article (written a couple days ago) is here.


But the relevant comment I wanted to share was this...
Quote
The influence of 'Apocalypse Now' was also seen in the character of Quaritch. This apparent psychopath - although, we are reliably informed by the actor who played him, Stephen Lang, that his character evolves over the series as a whole - has been compared to the similarly bloodthirsty Colonel Kurtz in Francis Ford Copolla's 1979 film. Whether or not Kurtz was an inspiration to Cameron, we don't know, but it is clear that the similarly harsh environments could spark such similar characters.
Wondering...apprehensively...what Stephen Lang meant by this...  
Is Quaritch going to be in all 3 additional films?   >:(
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 06:54:03 pm by Taronyu Leleioae »

Offline Niri Te

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2013, 10:23:32 pm »
I came across an interesting set of links when I was looking at the latest post that CyanRachel posted about Pandora Blue Prints for Walt Disney World (Florida).  On the side of the page had 4 other links to recent Avatar film discussions.  One was how a very recent comparison by a Yahoo News writer regarding Avatar vs Apocalypse Now in terms of shooting angles, shooting scenes out of cockpits and the destruction of the landscape.  The link to the article (written a couple days ago) is here.


But the relevant comment I wanted to share was this...
Quote
The influence of 'Apocalypse Now' was also seen in the character of Quaritch. This apparent psychopath - although, we are reliably informed by the actor who played him, Stephen Lang, that his character evolves over the series as a whole - has been compared to the similarly bloodthirsty Colonel Kurtz in Francis Ford Copolla's 1979 film. Whether or not Kurtz was an inspiration to Cameron, we don't know, but it is clear that the similarly harsh environments could spark such similar characters.
Wondering...apprehensively...what Stephen Lang meant by this...  
Is Quaritch going to be in all 3 additional films?   >:(

 The last announcement that was released was that he WAS contract for all three.
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Offline archaic

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2013, 03:02:45 pm »
One movie may be a prequel?
If so, plenty of scope for Quaritch.

Maybe there's to be a whole mass of flashbacks in Avatar two and three?
Doesn't feel likely for Cameron, but perhaps.

Maybe Avatar two and three are both sidequels, looking at the same/overlapping time period(s) from radically different perspectives?
Again, doesn't feel likely for Cameron, but perhaps.

No, I reckon we may have ourselves a Quaritch clone, either that or future medicine was able to somehow save him?
I feel we have established he is likely to have been spared the effects of Na'vi neurotoxin, and the absence of huge quantities of comedy horror movie gushing blood spurts, strongly tells me that Neytiri missed his heart and major blood vessels.
So maybe, just maybe, it's just possible he survived.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 03:06:34 pm by archaic »
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Offline Niri Te

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2013, 03:11:42 pm »

  I SAW where those arrows hit, she got his blood pump, he had NO heart.
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Offline archaic

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2013, 03:35:15 pm »
Not everyone has theirs on the left.
It's rare, around one in twelve hundred people have 'Dextrocardia situs inversus, where the heart is on the 'wrong side'.

Ask any surgeon and they'll tell you, people look different inside. Hell a third kidney, for example, is not that uncommon.
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Offline Niri Te

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2013, 04:16:09 pm »
 That may be, but the amount of species lethal neurotoxin on TWO weapons the human size of Spears, I doubt that ANY Human could survive. It's either a Clone, flashbacks, or he is "with" the Evil version of Eywa.
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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2013, 04:29:13 pm »
It's one thing to create a clone.  But then there is memories and learning.

Technologically, this is physically extremely possible and likely.  If the RDA can create a Na'vi based avatar from successfully blending human and Na'vi dna, and "grow" it in a tube to adulthood with muscle tone, then simply using pure human dna to create a clone using the same technology shouldn't be a problem.  And Quaritch states to Jake that he (Jake) could get his "real" legs back.  Meaning they can regrow body parts.  Perhaps even on the existing body?

Further, this is 150 years ish in the future.  Anyone going to Pandora would have had dna, blood and whatever other samples taken before departing Earth.  It would be a given in medicine at that point.

But it's the spirit that remains the big unknown.

Offline Niri Te

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2013, 04:38:07 pm »
It's one thing to create a clone.  But then there is memories and learning.

Technologically, this is physically extremely possible and likely.  If the RDA can create a Na'vi based avatar from successfully blending human and Na'vi dna, and "grow" it in a tube to adulthood with muscle tone, then simply using pure human dna to create a clone using the same technology shouldn't be a problem.  And Quaritch states to Jake that he (Jake) could get his "real" legs back.  Meaning they can regrow body parts.  Perhaps even on the existing body?

Further, this is 150 years ish in the future.  Anyone going to Pandora would have had dna, blood and whatever other samples taken before departing Earth.  It would be a given in medicine at that point.

But it's the spirit that remains the big unknown.


 That's all very true, but the Rebel Ayhumon that were allowed to stay, are partially comprised of medical personnel, they HAVE ALL of the equipment at the complex, so WHERE are Trudy Chacon, and Tsu'tey ??
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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2013, 06:08:44 pm »
That's all very true, but the Rebel Ayhumon that were allowed to stay, are partially comprised of medical personnel, they HAVE ALL of the equipment at the complex, so WHERE are Trudy Chacon, and Tsu'tey ??

All theoretical discussion of course...   And I'm admittedly going off topic on a related tangent...   :-[

No question Max and other scientists have backgrounds including genetics.  But they may not have equipment to "start" the cloning process.  However I had wondered about that for Norm.  They already had his avatar body (if it can be found and it's intact...) as a successful genetic mixing.  They likely still have a grow tube as the shuttles needed to ditch them to create space for those returning.  Question would be what about the tube liquid to grow the avatar in.  They know what it is.  But can it be made (or a suitable substitute)?

Trudy gave her life.  Tsu'tey did the same and was at peace.  
But if I were now isolated on Pandora with a bit more time on my hands, I'd wonder what could be done to clone Norm's avatar.  

Offline archaic

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2013, 07:34:59 pm »
"They can fix a spinal, if you’ve got the
money. But not on vet benefits, not in
this economy"
Exact techniques and procedures not mentioned, but likely using stem cell therapy.

While the RDA may not have Jake's DNA on file, they will have Tommy's - needed to construct the avatar.

It's forming neural pathways, programming what is essentially an empty vessel with memories, that's the trick.
Read my fanfic Avatar2 script for full details on how I think a Quaritch clone might come to be and be programmed.
Scene 13 .....
and
Scene 16 .....
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Offline archaic

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Re: Stephen Lang will be back
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2013, 07:51:47 pm »
The Dragon Affair my current fanfic - now complete.

The Dragons Clutch, my last fanfic, non Avatar related.

Machine, my last Avatar related fanfic.

 

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