Author Topic: Who died and who survived?  (Read 7637 times)

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Offline archaic

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Who died and who survived?
« on: March 15, 2010, 04:44:00 am »
Ok so we know that:
  • Eytukan: Dead, but he lives within eywa.
  • Dr Grace Augustine: Dead, but she lives within eywa. Booked for sequel.
  • Col Miles Quatitch: Booked for sequel?!*
*(survived somehow? lives within eywa like Augustine? Cloned? Flashback? Time Travel? Avatar2 is a prequel?)

What we do not know for sure:
  • Norms Avatar: The older script say's dead, but if we don't see it did it happen? Alone 2-3 hits in the shoulder shouldn't be enough to kill it, Quaritch states clearly that the Na'vi are "very hard to kill".
  • Trudy Chacone: Watch her samson explode, is there an ejector seat saving her life? I can't be sure, but just possibly. I hope she lived, she's too good a charater to just kill off, but it's a stretch.
  • Tsu'tey:Why does everyone assume he is dead? 5-6 entry wound on his front, no exit wounds, we see him adjusting his fall to begin a leaf fall landing. I think it's safe to assume he's well practiced. Dr Norm Spellman phd is on foot in the right area so could have been able to stop the bleeding, which would have saved his life. Plus as Quaritch states Na'vi are "very hard to kill". Or he lives within eywa.

These are just my opinions feel free to tell me if/why you think I'm wrong.
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Offline tìngay mungeyu

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2010, 06:37:04 am »
I'm very sad about the fact that Tsu'tey is dead but this is true, you can read about it in the moviescript.  :'( :'( :'(

Tsu'tey was mortally injured, then a human soldier came and cut Tsu'tey's queue off near the base. Later when Jake found him, Tsu'tey named him Olo'eyktan and ask him to set his spirit free, because death is better than living without a queue which is the only connection to the world-consciousness which his life. I would also choose death in the same situation.  :'(

"Tsu'tey I can never ride again, or bond with my woman -- or hear the voice of Eywa. I can not lead the People. You will lead them, Jakesully.
Jake: No. I’m not officer material.
Tsu'tey: It is decided. Now do the duty of Olo’eyctan. Set my spirit free.


Of course he lives within Eywa.

Offline archaic

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2010, 07:28:14 am »
I read that too, but if we don't see it on screen, does it happen?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 07:42:14 am by archaic »
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Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2010, 07:33:43 am »
As for Norms Avatar: Wasn't he in the scene at the end where they guarded the humans entering the spacecraft? For Tsu'tey I can guess that in the end Cameron decided to not get into the "what happens if the hairplug is cut off" discussion and left the scene out because of that. PLUS: Tsu'tey is an interesting character, more than Quaritch, who is just the bad guy. You can have bad huys all around, but a developed character like Tsu'tey is something different.
Imagine all the possible plots in Avatar 2 with Tsu'tey being Olo'exktan and rather conservative, and Jakesully being Turuk Makto (or having been), but not as conservative Na'vi as he grew up in different traditions. Both able leaders, both can work together and have respect for one another, but they both have also their problems with one another (or have had but they could rise up again)...

Just my 2 cents (do they have to be dollar cents or do euro cents suffice? ;D)

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Offline archaic

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2010, 07:47:19 am »
Human troops & AMP's are dropped off before the bombing run starts, the Direhorse riders have some distance to travel from the tree of souls area to reach them, Tsu'tey falls from the dragon late in the bombing run maybe as much as 20-30km from the ground battle.
Could a human soldier really have reached him that quickly? How? (and why would he break all his bones as in the script?)
It was a moving scene, just too implausible, I felt it was right to cut it.
But in the scene where the aliens are being loaded into the shuttle, jake is wearing Tsu'tey's choker and necklace combo, so they have met since the battle.

As for Norms Avatar: Wasn't he in the scene at the end where they guarded the humans entering the spacecraft? For Tsu'tey I can guess that in the end Cameron decided to not get into the "what happens if the hairplug is cut off" discussion and left the scene out because of that. PLUS: Tsu'tey is an interesting character, more than Quaritch, who is just the bad guy. You can have bad huys all around, but a developed character like Tsu'tey is something different.
Imagine all the possible plots in Avatar 2 with Tsu'tey being Olo'exktan and rather conservative, and Jakesully being Turuk Makto (or having been), but not as conservative Na'vi as he grew up in different traditions. Both able leaders, both can work together and have respect for one another, but they both have also their problems with one another (or have had but they could rise up again)...

Just my 2 cents (do they have to be dollar cents or do euro cents suffice? ;D)

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Squeeeee!
Now that would make for some plot depth, I like.

(depends on the exchange rate)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 08:03:51 am by archaic »
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Offline Mithcoriel

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2010, 06:46:14 pm »
Quote
As for Norms Avatar: Wasn't he in the scene at the end where they guarded the humans entering the spacecraft?


No he wasn't. Norm was there in human form. The Na'vi standing next to him was some other Avatar driver. (In the script, the other avatars all rebelled as well and were on Jake's side.)

Quote
For Tsu'tey I can guess that in the end Cameron decided to not get into the "what happens if the hairplug is cut off" discussion and left the scene out because of that.


No, he mentioned in an interview that the reason he cut it out was cause it interrupted the pace. The scene where Neytiri sees Jake's human form for the first time and they both say "I see you" is more powerful and more emotional than Tsu'tey's death, and for the sake of good dramaturgy, you can't have a less powerful scene after a powerful scene, that's why they had to cut it. It was almost a last-minute decision. Doesnt sound to me like anything else was actually wrong with the scene.

Quote
Imagine all the possible plots in Avatar 2 with Tsu'tey being Olo'exktan and rather conservative, and Jakesully being Turuk Makto (or having been), but not as conservative Na'vi as he grew up in different traditions.

As archaic mentioned: Jake is seen at the end of the movie wearing the Olo'eyktan-neck decoration, so Jake being the new clan leader is definitely part of the canon.

What makes you think Quaritch is booked for the sequel?

Trudy: in the original script she died. So I'm quite sure she's dead in the canon as well. I know, she was a great character, I miss her too, but it would be a bit cheap if they just forcibly made her survive.
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Offline archaic

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2010, 04:59:11 pm »
Quote

Sounds like even death won't keep Avatar's main villain away from reprising his role. Stephen Lang who played Colonel Miles Quaritch had this to say:

“You think those two arrows in my chest are going to stop me from coming back?” Nothing’s over so long as they’ve got my DNA.”

Found here
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/LetsCutTheBS/news/?a=13800
but I've read the same news in other places also.
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Offline Nifty

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2010, 11:59:51 pm »
Ok so we know that:
  • Eytukan: Dead, but he lives within eywa.
  • Dr Grace Augustine: Dead, but she lives within eywa. Booked for sequel.
  • Col Miles Quatitch: Booked for sequel?!*
*(survived somehow? lives within eywa like Augustine? Cloned? Flashback? Time Travel? Avatar2 is a prequel?)

What we do not know for sure:
  • Norms Avatar: The older script say's dead, but if we don't see it did it happen? Alone 2-3 hits in the shoulder shouldn't be enough to kill it, Quaritch states clearly that the Na'vi are "very hard to kill".
  • Trudy Chacone: Watch her samson explode, is there an ejector seat saving her life? I can't be sure, but just possibly. I hope she lived, she's too good a charater to just kill off, but it's a stretch.
  • Tsu'tey:Why does everyone assume he is dead? 5-6 entry wound on his front, no exit wounds, we see him adjusting his fall to begin a leaf fall landing. I think it's safe to assume he's well practiced. Dr Norm Spellman phd is on foot in the right area so could have been able to stop the bleeding, which would have saved his life. Plus as Quaritch states Na'vi are "very hard to kill". Or he lives within eywa.

These are just my opinions feel free to tell me if/why you think I'm wrong.

I have an answer to these 'not known yet' questions... ONE WORD: CLONING!!!  ;D
Most likely even if Norm's avatar died they can just create another from the RDA base.
For Trudy, I'm sure that with science in those times (suuposedly, since Na'vi were made via DNA) would have some clonning solution where it can clone someone from DNA or grow someone from the DNA like the growing of the Avatars.
Tsu'tey although is most likely (sorry), is dead.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 12:03:09 am by Nìftxavangutan »
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Offline Mithcoriel

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2010, 05:29:31 am »
Quote

Sounds like even death won't keep Avatar's main villain away from reprising his role. Stephen Lang who played Colonel Miles Quaritch had this to say:

“You think those two arrows in my chest are going to stop me from coming back?” Nothing’s over so long as they’ve got my DNA.”

Found here
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/LetsCutTheBS/news/?a=13800
but I've read the same news in other places also.

Yeah, but that's just what the actor said, isn't it? His wishful thinking. It's only relevant if James Cameron or the like says something like that. And the title "Seems not even death will stop this villain" sounds like the newspaper just wanted to add a catchy description.

Quote
For Trudy, I'm sure that with science in those times (suuposedly, since Na'vi were made via DNA) would have some clonning solution where it can clone someone from DNA or grow someone from the DNA like the growing of the Avatars.

Why are people constantly assuming that cloning is like bringing someone back from the dead? When you clone someone, you create a new baby, who, for all intents and purposes, could be called the little sibling of the original person, or their child, but it's not the same individual. It's entirely possible that this clone grows up to be almost the opposite of the original, out of rebellion cause they want to live their own life, or cause they were raised differently, or who knows what. Unless you transfer the memory and personality of the original.

But no matter what methods are suggested for bringing people back from the dead: this is a can of worms I don't think Cameron would (or should) open. It has a far too high risk of making the story cheesy, it removes the dangers and thereby lowers all the stakes, and creates too many questions. Like, how will they ever get rid of Quaritch, if the RDA keep his DNA and a backup of his memories in their database? He'd die ten times over and come back each time.

Actually, come to think of it, here's a reason why this probably wouldn't work: They didn't clone Tom Sully, Jake's brother, who was so useful to them. So that strongly suggests they can't. Another option still, if they had the ability to save a dead person's memories, would have been to put Tom into the Avatar. Not the best solution, since I'm sure Tom would have wanted to stay human, but given the circumstances, I'm sure he wouldn't have minded. Being a Na'vi is better than being dead. Or, at the very least, they could have transferred Tom's memories, his knowledge of the Na'vi and science, into Jake, to help him work for them. Again, obviously this can't be done.
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Offline archaic

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2010, 03:24:23 pm »
Well reasoned.
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Offline Tsa'räni

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2010, 06:55:04 pm »
Why are people constantly assuming that cloning is like bringing someone back from the dead?...snip...Unless you transfer the memory and personality of the original.

That's easy to answer.  People assume that because it's usually what is done in science fiction.  And Avatar is not only science fiction, but science fiction that deals with transferring active minds from one body to another.  It's a perfectly reasonable assumption.

Offline Mithcoriel

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2010, 07:53:56 pm »
Why are people constantly assuming that cloning is like bringing someone back from the dead?...snip...Unless you transfer the memory and personality of the original.

That's easy to answer.  People assume that because it's usually what is done in science fiction.  And Avatar is not only science fiction, but science fiction that deals with transferring active minds from one body to another.  It's a perfectly reasonable assumption.

Yes, I know, but then you need to also mention the bit about transferring the mind. As I said, cloning by itself is just making a baby.
And I explained in the other paragraphs why the RDA most likely don't have the ability to transfer minds to clones like that.
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Offline Tsa'räni

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2010, 09:22:24 pm »
Actually, considering the complexity of the brain, it's entirely possible that unless you act within a very short time of a person's death, you wouldn't be able to transfer memories and the like.  This wouldn't be any bigger than some of the leaps Avatar has already made.  So the fact that his brother wasn't cloned and his memories transferred after his death doesn't necessarily prove anything.

Offline Nifty

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2010, 03:10:46 am »
Ehem, not to be picky or such but what about now in real life? Scientists have started clonning dogs and their memories etc. were all there.

*Got this from Channel 9 News*
Oel tsapayang ngati ulte yom ngahu menari lu wutso. Jks ^-^
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Offline Mithcoriel

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2010, 07:08:45 am »
Ehem, not to be picky or such but what about now in real life? Scientists have started clonning dogs and their memories etc. were all there.

*Got this from Channel 9 News*

That is indeed interesting, and would be most revolutionary. Do you have a source? Was it really the actual memories, not just a genetic predisposition to learn the same things well, that was cloned?
What equipment did they use to measure the complex ways the neurons were connected in the original dog's brain, and how did they transfer that structure to the clone to rewire him in the same way?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 07:19:52 am by Mithcoriel »
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Offline Nifty

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2010, 09:46:02 pm »
Ehem, not to be picky or such but what about now in real life? Scientists have started clonning dogs and their memories etc. were all there.

*Got this from Channel 9 News*

That is indeed interesting, and would be most revolutionary. Do you have a source? Was it really the actual memories, not just a genetic predisposition to learn the same things well, that was cloned?
What equipment did they use to measure the complex ways the neurons were connected in the original dog's brain, and how did they transfer that structure to the clone to rewire him in the same way?


Sorry but I don't think I can find a source. I got this from Channel 9 News on television. This was about a month or so ago; so I'm not sure if its still online... In fact I don't think it was even update on the online site.
Oel tsapayang ngati ulte yom ngahu menari lu wutso. Jks ^-^
*I'm back from the dead... that is back after around 9 months... I'm sorry =(, school's been tough*

I've gone into making game guides for Wesnoth and getting back to a skill I haven't used for over 10 years... drawing. :)

Offline archaic

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2010, 07:43:41 pm »
"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"

But I would be happy if this story turns out to be correct.
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Offline Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2010, 10:14:01 pm »
Cloning is good and all, but I'm more for studies on Turritopsis nutricula aka The immortal jellyfish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turritopsis_nutricula
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Offline archaic

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2010, 02:23:14 pm »
Could Quaritch cheat death that way?

 ;D
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Offline Mithcoriel

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Re: Who died and who survived?
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2010, 05:16:27 pm »
Um..Quaritch is not a jellyfish, so I don't quite see your point..
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