Author Topic: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II  (Read 8492 times)

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Offline Eana Unil

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2015, 06:24:44 pm »
Since they are kinda speaking in my comic, can't I leave out the 2nd lu anyway? If totally not because it's written speech, I'll edit it  ;D I don't hesitate because I'm too lazy to edit, but because I somehow like it more without the 2nd lu, it's faster and more energetic imo.  :)
Like speaking fast and thus leaving out the second lu, but I guess that would be wrong anyway  :-\ Like saying "you are sister who more old", sounds like a gorilla speaking or something, hrh.

... akoak nì'ul wouldn't make much sense to me, though, because nì'ul would require some sort of verb, no?
A lu koak nì'ul, nì'ul referring to lu, not to (a)koak, kefyak?

Dunno, maybe I'm just wrong and nitpicking for no reason at all, txoa if that's the case xD

Thank you both very, very much for your help! I really mean it  :D

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Offline Plumps

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2015, 07:15:02 pm »
... akoak nì'ul wouldn't make much sense to me, though, because nì'ul would require some sort of verb, no?
A lu koak nì'ul, nì'ul referring to lu, not to (a)koak, kefyak?

Nì’ul behaves weird at times… Even in the first use in the message to the community

mawkrr layeiu oer krr nì’ul, it always looked like an adjectival use to me: “more time” rather than “have more”

I could also find this one in the comments,

kin awngal lì’fyavit a lu txur nì’ul nì’it. blog comment
“We need an expression that is a bit stronger.”

And this idiom from one of the previous blog posts:
Hem asrunga’ nì’ul, hum asngunga’ nìnän. blog
“More helpful actions lead to less troubling outcomes.”

So, I don’t see a problem with this construct of “older sister” as tsmuke akoak nì’ul. How else would you translate it? Always via a relative clause? Could become quite wordy… Also, we know that “oldest sister” is tsmuke akoak frato. So I built on the parallel structure :P

Rä’ä ftang pivawm kawkrr, rutxe ;) Lu fìfya’o a nume awnga nì’ul.

Offline Eana Unil

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2015, 02:36:27 am »
Ngaru tìyawr...and I also just remembered Neytiris phrase "txur nì'ul"... *facepalm*  ;D My brain doesn't always work as it should. Thank you so much, again! I'll change this part in my comic later today ^^

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #43 on: December 25, 2015, 03:29:13 pm »
Since they are kinda speaking in my comic, can't I leave out the 2nd lu anyway? If totally not because it's written speech, I'll edit it  ;D I don't hesitate because I'm too lazy to edit, but because I somehow like it more without the 2nd lu, it's faster and more energetic imo.  :)
Like speaking fast and thus leaving out the second lu, but I guess that would be wrong anyway  :-\ Like saying "you are sister who more old", sounds like a gorilla speaking or something, hrh.

... akoak nì'ul wouldn't make much sense to me, though, because nì'ul would require some sort of verb, no?
A lu koak nì'ul, nì'ul referring to lu, not to (a)koak, kefyak?
Yes, adverb usually connects with verbs, as they specify time/manner/place of the action described by verb. But, of course, not all is blue-white, exceptions still exist :)
If you are unsure, try to delete part of sentence and check, whether it is still gives some sense.
tsmuke a lu koak nì'ul - Ok
tsmuke a lu koak - Ok
tsmuke a lu nì'ul - Err! Aparently nì'ul is not connected to lu. There are two reasons: 1/ lu is just auxiliary verb, 2/ more X is second grade of adjective gradation (I'm not sure if it is correct linguistic term - sorry if not): old - older - oldest, so here for sure it connects with koak.
"Too wordy" is common problem - vocabulary is not too rich, but there are only two solutions: accept or join LEP to propose something better ;D
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Eana Unil

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2017, 09:32:03 pm »
Ma eylan,
oer lu tìpawm, ha vin oel srungti :)


Tsalì'fyaviri le'Ìnglìsì alu "at a time when..." fu "at a time of great need" peu slivu nìNa'vi, tì'efumì ayngeyä?



Nìsung, pefya ayngal 'awstengyivem hemlì'uvit alu <ol> / <am>, <ìm> + <ats>?
Tsal ftolatsem oeti... Tsal ftamatsem oeti... Tsal ftìmatsem oeti  ??? :-\

v
v
v

Lam fkor fwa tsal ftolem oeti...  :P
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 09:36:55 pm by Eana Unil »

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2017, 09:51:39 pm »
ol/am/ìm and ats don't blend together, as they occupy two different positions or two different syllables if I'm not wrong.

For at a time when, I need a more complete sentence to see what can really be done.
For at a time of great need, I would say mì hrr tìkìnä anawm or something similar.

Offline Plumps

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2017, 04:00:25 am »
Nìsung, pefya ayngal 'awstengyivem hemlì'uvit alu <ol> / <am>, <ìm> + <ats>?
Tsal ftolatsem oeti... Tsal ftamatsem oeti... Tsal ftìmatsem oeti  ??? :-\

That’s right, ‹ol›, ‹er› and all the time infixes share the same position. ‹ats› is second position. So for ftem it’s ft‹1›‹2›em

The only thing you can do is combine the time and aspect infixes ≈> ftalmatsem / ftìlmatsem


For at a time of great need, I would say mì hrr tìkìnä anawm or something similar.

I’d use apxa instead of nawm.

Offline Eana Unil

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2017, 09:03:11 am »
Irayo mengar nìtxan :)

As for the infixes, I thought so... too bad it's really that way  ;D You can use <asy> or <ìsy>, but for saying, for example, I was going to do sth, you can't combine infixes that way... which is kinda logical, kezemplltxe, but yeah. Yewla. ^^
Now that makes me wonder about Neytiri's line "Oel pot tspìmìyang"  tho...

For at a time when, I need a more complete sentence to see what can really be done.
Let's say, for example, something like "At a time when Toruk Makto was needed" or whatever. Krra could be the most efficient solution here, but the point is, I don't want the simple way here, hrh. Mì hrr was the crucial part I wanted to know tho, I guess :)

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2017, 09:16:36 am »
I'm not sure if just ''when'' would work without slightly changing the meaning. ''When'' indicates more a moment than a period.

Mì hrr a fkol kolin Torukit Makto would be good. The part from ''a' to the end of the phrase clearly describes ''krr'', which means ''time'' or ''period''.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 09:26:33 am by Vawmataw »

Offline Eana Unil

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2017, 10:22:04 am »
Irayo ma tsmukan :)

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2017, 04:28:27 pm »
Irayo mengar nìtxan :)

As for the infixes, I thought so... too bad it's really that way  ;D You can use <asy> or <ìsy>, but for saying, for example, I was going to do sth, you can't combine infixes that way... which is kinda logical, kezemplltxe, but yeah. Yewla. ^^
Now that makes me wonder about Neytiri's line "Oel pot tspìmìyang"  tho...
This famous sentence is now considered as incorrect, as you can't put two time infixes into first position. Correct form could be for example:
Oe häpìrmawl fte tspìyevang pot - I was preparing myself in order to kill him in a moment.

Yo can only combine ol/er with time infixes (or iv + time infixes), as already said.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline archaic

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2017, 05:46:00 pm »
I have a heart breaking one, I want to say "I want my mommy, and you killed her."
I got "Oe new Sa’nu, nga tspang ulte." am I close?

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2017, 06:04:40 pm »
I have a heart breaking one, I want to say "I want my mommy, and you killed her."
I got "Oe new Sa’nu, nga tspang ulte." am I close?

When new is taking a noun direct object, like it is here, you treat it like a transitive verb. So, you need a subject in the agentive and an object in the patientive, oel new Sa'nut.

"Killing" is also a highly transitive act, so you need the agentive here, too. I'm not sure if you left "her" out of the Na'vi translation on purpose, but I'd probably go with — slä ngal poti tspolang "but you have killed her."
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Offline archaic

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2017, 05:24:19 pm »
Err .....


So a while back I started a thread (My poor understanding of English language tech terms stops me dead). I think the title pretty much says it all.

Don't get me wrong, I do genuinely appreciate your reply, it's just most of it was quite a long way over my head.


Also, would it be OK for me to Copy and Past that into a fanfic of mine?
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Offline Plumps

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2017, 05:51:15 pm »
Think of it this way … why is it oel ngati kameie? Because in *oe nga kameie you wouldn’t know who sees whom.

Same as in *oe new sa’nu you wouldn’t know who wants whom. The relative free word order of Na’vi would allow the meaning of “mommy wants me” as well. The L and T endings make the roles clear. L is the doer of the action (wanting) and the T is the receiver of the action.

So you get,

oel new sa’nut = I want mommy.
oeti new sa’nul = Mommy wants me.

Notice that the word order doesn’t change in Na’vi but it means something different just because of the endings. Na’vi requires these endings to make the meaning of a sentence clear.

Hope that helps ;)

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2017, 07:05:33 pm »
OK, I actually did know the -l and -ti part, now you mention it. I should have remembered, but it has been a while.


However "subject in the agentive and an object in the patientive" is above my level.
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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2017, 07:25:42 pm »
Quote
However "subject in the agentive and an object in the patientive" is above my level.
The agentive is -l and the patientive is -t.
The subject is what/who does the action (verb). The object is what/who undergoes the action. You can find it by answering to the question X verbs what/whom/to what/to whom.
It only applies when you have an transitive verb, which is a verb that needs a direct object. A direct object is an object that is introduced without a preposition (to, for, etc.). (Well, some indirect objects are simple pronouns.)

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #57 on: January 28, 2017, 05:12:26 am »
One doesn't really need to know the terms subject, agentive, object, patientive, transitive etc. For the beginning, it should be enough to understand that the L is the doer and T the receiver of an action the doer does (as Plumps wrote).

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Offline Eana Unil

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2017, 02:13:03 pm »
Lu oeru tìpawm... Thinking about "saylahe", which consists of "sì aylahe", made me wonder if you could say "aylahe" instead of (for example) "lapo"? Like "miscellaneous stuff" or "miscellanea".
Säfpìlìri ayngeyä srefereiey' nìprrte' :)

Edit:

Also, how do you use "mìkam"? Is it limited to physical places only? Like "between river and forest", or can it be used for other thinks like "sanity/insanity" or "life/death"?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 03:41:03 pm by Eana Unil »

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Re: [For Beginners] FAQ (Please ask your questions here) - II
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2017, 02:05:49 pm »
There is something strange about "aylahe". It was in the dictionary from the beginning, however was removed around March 2011. Yet the last reference from K. Pawl is in October 2014 in this post. In this moment I don't know if it was pulled back from dictionary by accident or intentionally.
Nevertheless, I'am not sure if the meaning "other" is the same as "miscellaneous". This is a question for native English speakers.
IMHO they are different:
other = another, else, "outside of the group/set we are thinking of now"
miscellaneous = various, "mixed of many types or sources"

I would use "mìkam" in both physical and symbolic meaning, e.g. both for "mìkam ayutral" and "mìkam trr sì txon". Of course, not for the meaning "among", for this we have "kip".
Tìvawmìri txopu rä’ä si. Nrr!

 

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