[For Beginners] FAQ

[Plumps]

Ok, I think I kinda got it, 'Oel tsole'a tsatutanit a nga polom' means 'I say that guy that you kissed' where the 'that you kissed' saying which, or describing, the guy of topic.

Actually, that's an ambiguous sentence because there is no case ending on nga 'you'. It could either mean '... the man who you kissed' or '... the man who kissed you'. I think another L or T ending is needed

oel tsole'a tsatutanit a ngal polom.
I've seen that man who you've kissed.

oel tsole'a tsatutanit a ngati polom.
I've seen that man who has kissed you.

Actually, I don't know if I ever got around to posting it in /language-updates, but I emailed Paul about this when Kemaweyan brought this up a couple months ago. It turns out that it is not ambiguous. [...] a nga polom cannot possibly be mistaken for "[...]which kissed you" but I agree, here I'd use ngal. And this:

oeru sunu fì'u a oe tse'a = "I like [[the very fact]] that I see."
oeru sunu fì'u a oel tse'a = "I like this thing which I see."

I should probably go dig up that email and post it.

Please do. This is very important information and I'd very much like to see that

[Blue Elf]

You would have to say Oel yerom fkxenit a ke lu ftxìlor.  I am eating a vegetable which is not delicious.

That I thought first.
But I'm interested if is allowed to put attributive -a- to keftxìlor. To write keftxìlor is allowed (see Horen).

why not to use simple Oel yerängom fkxenit aftxìvä' ?

also, I noticed here some incorrect posts here, which ended up as stroked out, but I would prefer to deleted them completely to not confuse other people; post with complete stroked out text is somehow... useless. Can mod do it?

[Alyara Arati]

why not to use simple Oel yerängom fkxenit aftxìvä' ?

Maybe the vegetable is not nasty, but merely not delicious.  It could be kesran, or mediocre, could it not?

[Blue Elf]

why not to use simple Oel yerängom fkxenit aftxìvä' ?

Maybe the vegetable is not nasty, but merely not delicious.  It could be kesran, or mediocre, could it not?

I'd say no. Is fkxen akesran vegetable, which tastes not good, not bad, or is it vegetable with some mediocre characteristics? IMO kesran has nothing common with taste

[Mr. HelloBye]

Also, what about imperative (command form)? Aren't there two different kinds or something (harsh and polite or something like that)?
Edit: also, that page about thanking for something had a 'si' verb with the 'si' (had infix s<ei>yi) went first (seiyi irayo)... How does that work?

[Eana Unil]

I find that imperative with <iv> sounds more like commanding request than a "real" command, but that's just me.

Kä! - Go!
Kivä. - Go.

And there's also...

Rä'ä k(iv)ä! - Don't go!


Edit regarding "seiyi irayo":
I'll just quote here Just read it again.

(...)
Sìpawmìri oe ngaru seiyi irayo.
(...)
The verb "to thank" is [irayo si].  Si is the helping verb, and with si verbs, the infixes go inside the helping verb.  NOT the main verb.  Thus you have s<ei>(y)i.  You add the y if you have an i-i collision to split them up for pronunciation.  So s<ei>i turns into seiyi.  Which means happily do this verb.  So.... irayo seiyi means...  (happily) thank. You may notice the words are out of order, but this is ok in Na'vi when they are back to back.  Having irayo on the end simply suggests a bit more emphasis/focus on that "thank" part. You'll learn this.  It's just an optional but subtle word order option.
(...)

[Tìtstewan]

also, I noticed here some incorrect posts here, which ended up as stroked out, but I would prefer to deleted them completely to not confuse other people; post with complete stroked out text is somehow... useless. Can mod do it?

I have deleted my post and unnecessary content.

[Blue Elf]

Also, what about imperative (command form)? Aren't there two different kinds or something (harsh and polite or something like that)?
Edit: also, that page about thanking for something had a 'si' verb with the 'si' (had infix s<ei>yi) went first (seiyi irayo)... How does that work?

Commands have no specific form, all depends on intonation. In "old" Na'vi, commands with <iv> infix were understood as polite commands, but now it is not rule. So commands with or without <iv> are the same (although still <iv> is considered or some degree of politeness).

irayo si vs. si irayo is the same, but if I'm not mistaken, it is the ONLY verb where you can swap noun part with si.

I have deleted my post and unnecessary content.

Thanks! This it is better

[Tirea Aean]

Also, what about imperative (command form)? Aren't there two different kinds or something (harsh and polite or something like that)?
Edit: also, that page about thanking for something had a 'si' verb with the 'si' (had infix s<ei>yi) went first (seiyi irayo)... How does that work?

Commands have no specific form, all depends on intonation. In "old" Na'vi, commands with <iv> infix were understood as polite commands, but now it is not rule. So commands with or without <iv> are the same (although still <iv> is considered or some degree of politeness).

irayo si vs. si irayo is the same, but if I'm not mistaken, it is the ONLY verb where you can swap noun part with si.

I have deleted my post and unnecessary content.

Thanks! This it is better

this.

I never saw anything where seiyi irayo and irayo seiyi are any different or anything about emphasis, but I suppose if this is at the end of the sentence, combine with the fact that the last word in the sentence has emphasis, whatever word seiyi or irayo is last has emphasis. Maybe that's what TL was saying.

Yeah, please let's keep the strikethrough stuff to a minimum. If you go back and edit, try to make it a point to make the incorrect stuff very un-noticable, like adding a color beige or grey with the strikethrough, or delete that part. Make sure that the Correct portion of your post has emphasis and that what you Really want to say is made clear. I have the power to edit or delete any post, but I really try not to do that. I'd much rather the post author do that if possible. I don't like messing with other people's posts without permission in a discussion because I believe it is confusing and wrong.

[Taronyu Leleioae]

this.

I never saw anything where seiyi irayo and irayo seiyi are any different or anything about emphasis, but I suppose if this is at the end of the sentence, combine with the fact that the last word in the sentence has emphasis, whatever word seiyi or irayo is last has emphasis. Maybe that's what TL was saying.

Yes.  I was just trying to make the minor point that word order didn't matter since there are examples of having a "si" verb word order go either way.  (Thus pointing out word order can be flexible.)  However there could be a subtle difference in emphasis to whatever the last word is.  Pawl made a small mention of this in his blog in March 2011 discussing a simple sentence word order comparison.  Although it was not specific to "si" verbs.

–Spaw oel futa Mo'atìl tsole'a Neytirit.
'I believe Mo'at saw Neytiri.'

–Kehe. Tsole'a Neytirit Eytukanìl.
'No, the one who saw Neytiri was Eytukan.'

Here the speaker has chosen a word order that puts Eytukanìl at the end of the sentence to highlight the important, contrastive information—just as the English translation does, but less concisely than the Na'vi.

Yeah, please let's keep the strikethrough stuff to a minimum. If you go back and edit, try to make it a point to make the incorrect stuff very un-noticable, like adding a color beige or grey with the strikethrough, or delete that part. Make sure that the Correct portion of your post has emphasis and that what you Really want to say is made clear. I have the power to edit or delete any post, but I really try not to do that. I'd much rather the post author do that if possible. I don't like messing with other people's posts without permission in a discussion because I believe it is confusing and wrong.

I agree it is confusing.  But deleting it altogether, (Tìtstewan did it right imo by at least making a note that he deleted content and not his whole post...), because the following post will not flow and will be in itself confusing to the reader who will ask what the now unrelated comments were all about.  You do learn from mistakes (both yours and from others).  So just wiping out posts does clean up a thread, but perhaps there was something valuable to be learned there from the mistake.  In this instance, a misunderstanding, clarification, and reminder about how to determine productivity.  Graying it makes sense...

[Alyara Arati]

why not to use simple Oel yerängom fkxenit aftxìvä' ?

Maybe the vegetable is not nasty, but merely not delicious.  It could be kesran, or mediocre, could it not?

I'd say no. Is fkxen akesran vegetable, which tastes not good, not bad, or is it vegetable with some mediocre characteristics? IMO kesran has nothing common with taste

Fìfkxenìri sur fkan oeru kesran.  As for this vegetable, the taste comes to me as mediocre.

I should have said this clearly at the beginning, but did not because I had no desire to confuse any new students with this complex construction.

[Tirea Aean]

this.

I never saw anything where seiyi irayo and irayo seiyi are any different or anything about emphasis, but I suppose if this is at the end of the sentence, combine with the fact that the last word in the sentence has emphasis, whatever word seiyi or irayo is last has emphasis. Maybe that's what TL was saying.

Yes.  I was just trying to make the minor point that word order didn't matter since there are examples of having a "si" verb word order go either way.  (Thus pointing out word order can be flexible.)  However there could be a subtle difference in emphasis to whatever the last word is.  Pawl made a small mention of this in his blog in March 2011 discussing a simple sentence word order comparison.  Although it was not specific to "si" verbs.

–Spaw oel futa Mo'atìl tsole'a Neytirit.
'I believe Mo'at saw Neytiri.'

–Kehe. Tsole'a Neytirit Eytukanìl.
'No, the one who saw Neytiri was Eytukan.'

Here the speaker has chosen a word order that puts Eytukanìl at the end of the sentence to highlight the important, contrastive information—just as the English translation does, but less concisely than the Na'vi.

but irayo si is the exception. All other si verbs have to be "___ si". Unless another one has made it into the language without me noticing. (which is possible)

[Taronyu Leleioae]

but irayo si is the exception. All other si verbs have to be "___ si". Unless another one has made it into the language without me noticing. (which is possible)

Hmmm...   My turn to ask a question then...

Not allowed for a verb such as "tsap'alute si" where you really want to put the emphasis on the apology part?

[Tirea Aean]

but irayo si is the exception. All other si verbs have to be "___ si". Unless another one has made it into the language without me noticing. (which is possible)

Hmmm...   My turn to ask a question then...

Not allowed for a verb such as "tsap'alute si" where you really want to put the emphasis on the apology part?

the fact that tsap'alute si is the last thing.

Try to think of "___ si" as one word.

Honestly I think "seiyi irayo" was just a test of limits with stylistic license that was later rethought and regretted, but since it was SO widespread, it remained as the sole exception.

[Taronyu Leleioae]

the fact that tsap'alute si is the last thing.

Try to think of "___ si" as one word.

Honestly I think "seiyi irayo" was just a test of limits with stylistic license that was later rethought and regretted, but since it was SO widespread, it remained as the sole exception.

Nods...

"seiyi irayo" was also used in the film where Jake thanked the yerik as his honourable kill.  Maybe that was also why it remained as an irregular existing usage even though the language was revised?    


Oel ngati kameie, ma tsmukan, ulte ngaru seiyi irayo...

[Tirea Aean]

the fact that tsap'alute si is the last thing.

Try to think of "___ si" as one word.

Honestly I think "seiyi irayo" was just a test of limits with stylistic license that was later rethought and regretted, but since it was SO widespread, it remained as the sole exception.

Nods...

"seiyi irayo" was also used in the film where Jake thanked the yerik as his honourable kill.  Maybe that was also why it remained as an irregular existing usage even though the language was revised?   


Oel ngati kameie, ma tsmukan, ulte ngaru seiyi irayo...

Right. I figure that surely strengthened the argument for its existence.

[Mr. HelloBye]

So if you have multiple infixes in the same spot (not the aspect+tense infix combinations), like of you wanted to say "they happily slept", could you say either 'Mefo heiyìlyahaw' or 'Mefo heìlyeiahaw' or does it matter? Or does this work exactly?

Edit: my bad, I meant to use <ìlm>, 'twas kind of a brain fart

[Eana Unil]

Using the infix "ìly" in hahaw (hìlyahaw) would mean that they will have been sleeping soon, afaIk.

For saying "they (the two of them) have slept" you'd have to say "halmahaw/holahaw". Combining this with <ei> would mean that you're happy about the fact that they have slept (happily, or better peacefully imo), when you're the one who's hearing/saying/noticing it - again afaIk.
Though if you want to say that they have slept and you're feeling good about it, you'd have to say mefo halmaheiaw/holaheiaw.
Explanation: h<0><1>ah<2>aw. <ei>/<äng> always come into the <2> spot.


So saying that they have slept peacefully/happily would translate into mefo halmahaw (or simply holahaw) lefpom, but I'm not sure about the lefpom, for it should be nìfpom, though I don't know if this would be allowed to say/use, so nìprrte' would be better, I'd say.
Oh my Eywa, I'm absolutely not sure if this was correct or not, please correct me, if I was wrong

[Plumps]

Explanation about infix positions, meaning and variations all correct, ma Eana Unil. Don't sell yourself short

Only thing I would say differently is peacefully/happily as nìmwey as we already have this in the phrase hivahaw nìmwey "sleep well/good night"

[Eana Unil]

Phew, ok, good Irayo, ma Plumps :3

Aaaah, yeah, nìmwey! Totally forgot about this one. Perfect for this use.