A few questions on my Na'vi studies so far...

[Swoka Ikran]

Kaltxì frapo!

I've been studying the nutshell guide now for a few weeks on and off when I have the time (study halls when I have no homework typically), and now have quite a few questions about it. I've finally gotten through chapter 7 (possibilities in ch. 5 was a PITA), and briefly looked at chapter 8 today at school. I can make sense of quite a bit of Na'vi using a dictionary and a list of adpositions (which I haven't memorized yet).

If I get bored sometimes I go read the intermediate or Na'vi Nì'aw sections and translate them. Probably good for vocab at the very least...

Anyway, now to my questions:

First, how does one go about pronouncing a glottal stop in the beginning of a word? When I try to pronounce them, it seems as if it'd be silent unless you put a prefix on.

Second, how does one make the px sound? On the lips? I can make the kx and tx fine, although it's still difficult for me (everything takes practice...).

Third, could someone check the following sentence to see if I have at least a basic understanding of grammar and sentence structure?

Oe-l tsaheyl s<ay>i ikran-ur ulte oe tsw<ay>ayon.
I was aiming for "I will bond with an ikran and I will fly."

Also, regarding that sentence: Do I need anything between tsaheyl sayi and ikran to make it with an ikran instead of to an ikran?

Fourth, what's the best way to type in Na'vi on a PC where you can't install software or use Character Map? At home I use character map for the ì and ä (and I'll probably install a KB layout eventually), but my high school PCs are so over-secured you can't do much beyond browse the web and do homework.

Irayo in advance guys!
Eywa ngahu.

[NeotrekkerZ]

First, how does one go about pronouncing a glottal stop in the beginning of a word? When I try to pronounce them, it seems as if it'd be silent unless you put a prefix on.

This is kind of hard to explain, but start pronouncing "uh-oh" over and over again and try to feel the shift in your throat between "uh" and "oh" (it's subtle).  Now try and pronounce a word with a glottal stop at the beginning starting with your throat in this "shifted" position.  Compare to how you would pronounce it normally (without the ').  When I do it, it feels like a small puff of air, about 1/4 as strong as an ejective, is coming out with the sound.

Second, how does one make the px sound? On the lips? I can make the kx and tx fine, although it's still difficult for me (everything takes practice...).

I make it on the lips.  If it helps, put a little extra pressure on your lips, holding them together before releasing.

Third, could someone check the following sentence to see if I have at least a basic understanding of grammar and sentence structure?

The only thing I see wrong is oel, it should be just oe.  This is because si verbs are thought of as intransitive, hence they don't officially take direct objects (even though they do) and hence cannot have the ergative ending on the subject.  I think the "with" part is included in the verb itself.

Fourth, what's the best way to type in Na'vi on a PC where you can't install software or use Character Map?

I think you're stuck with copy and paste.  We do have buttons in the message section though, so you could always type up everything on this site.

[Hawnuyu atxen]

Third, could someone check the following sentence to see if I have at least a basic understanding of grammar and sentence structure?

The only thing I see wrong is oel, it should be just oe.  This is because si verbs are thought of as intransitive, hence they don't officially take direct objects (even though they do) and hence cannot have the ergative ending on the subject.  I think the "with" part is included in the verb itself.
[/quote]

It indeed should be just "oe". For the with part of your question, instead of -ur, add -hu (with, as acompany)

[kewnya txamew'itan]

Kehe ma Hawnuyu. -hu- is only for accompaniment, all other uses of with in English are covered with other words, in this context, -ur is the only correct one.





Ma Swoka, when you say tea (ti nìna'vi) the ea (i) should have a more sudden onset than when you just say ee (i). This is because the consonant is a plosive, the glottal stop is also a plosive but, unlike p, t or k it doesn't have the extra sounds on top that make it possible to distinguish between the different plosives, all that is left is the sudden onset of the vowel (if the vowel is a musical note, the glottal stop would be like an accent on it).

px should be done just using you lips. Try saying a p as loudly as you can with your breath held, if you then open your throat after the px, you should have it.

Neo has given you the corrections for the sentence.

Have you tried the alt codes? ì is alt then 141 on the num pad and ä is alt then 132.

[Feiane]

To get the ä and ì characters,

If you use Windows you can change your keyboard settings to "US-international" http://support.microsoft.com/kb/306560

[Swoka Ikran]

This is kind of hard to explain, but start pronouncing "uh-oh" over and over again and try to feel the shift in your throat between "uh" and "oh" (it's subtle).  Now try and pronounce a word with a glottal stop at the beginning starting with your throat in this "shifted" position.  Compare to how you would pronounce it normally (without the ').  When I do it, it feels like a small puff of air, about 1/4 as strong as an ejective, is coming out with the sound.

Feels a bit weird when I do that, but I guess I'll get used to it. I can hear (and feel) a difference when it's pronounced with that. Thanks for the explanation.

I make it on the lips.  If it helps, put a little extra pressure on your lips, holding them together before releasing.

and

px should be done just using you lips. Try saying a p as loudly as you can with your breath held, if you then open your throat after the px, you should have it.

Guess I just need to put more force behind it...good to know it is indeed on the lips as I thought.

The only thing I see wrong is oel, it should be just oe.  This is because si verbs are thought of as intransitive, hence they don't officially take direct objects (even though they do) and hence cannot have the ergative ending on the subject.  I think the "with" part is included in the verb itself.

"si" verbs are intransitive...will need to remember that.

As for "with" being considered part of the verb, is that true with most verbs where you would "verb with X"?

I think you're stuck with copy and paste.  We do have buttons in the message section though, so you could always type up everything on this site.

Well, at least this site's not blocked on those PCs. Guess it will have to do for right now. I can try the alt-codes, but I'm gonna have to write those down.


One more thing if you folks don't mind:

How would I go about saying "for", as in "I thank you for dinner"? Do I just say Oe irayo si nga-ru wutso, or would that end up as "I thank you dinner"?

Irayo,
Eywa ngahu

[omängum fra'uti]

The common form of "I thank you for X" or "I apologize for X" or things like that is using the topic...

Wutso-ri oe irayo si nga-ru
I thank you for dinner

It's not actually translating anything as "for", rather it's setting up a topic of what you are talking about, then within that context saying "Thank you".

[kewnya txamew'itan]

This is kind of hard to explain, but start pronouncing "uh-oh" over and over again and try to feel the shift in your throat between "uh" and "oh" (it's subtle).  Now try and pronounce a word with a glottal stop at the beginning starting with your throat in this "shifted" position.  Compare to how you would pronounce it normally (without the ').  When I do it, it feels like a small puff of air, about 1/4 as strong as an ejective, is coming out with the sound.

Feels a bit weird when I do that, but I guess I'll get used to it. I can hear (and feel) a difference when it's pronounced with that. Thanks for the explanation.

I make it on the lips.  If it helps, put a little extra pressure on your lips, holding them together before releasing.

and

px should be done just using you lips. Try saying a p as loudly as you can with your breath held, if you then open your throat after the px, you should have it.

Guess I just need to put more force behind it...good to know it is indeed on the lips as I thought.

The only thing I see wrong is oel, it should be just oe.  This is because si verbs are thought of as intransitive, hence they don't officially take direct objects (even though they do) and hence cannot have the ergative ending on the subject.  I think the "with" part is included in the verb itself.

"si" verbs are intransitive...will need to remember that.

As for "with" being considered part of the verb, is that true with most verbs where you would "verb with X"?

I think you're stuck with copy and paste.  We do have buttons in the message section though, so you could always type up everything on this site.

Well, at least this site's not blocked on those PCs. Guess it will have to do for right now. I can try the alt-codes, but I'm gonna have to write those down.


One more thing if you folks don't mind:

How would I go about saying "for", as in "I thank you for dinner"? Do I just say Oe irayo si nga-ru wutso, or would that end up as "I thank you dinner"?

Irayo,
Eywa ngahu

2. not necessarily force, just make sure your breath is held.

3. si verbs are syntactically intransitive, they can still have what is semantically a direct object, it just takes the dative because of the syntax. With isn't always done with the dative but is often done so, it's important to note that hu is only if you accompany something/one

[Swoka Ikran]

The common form of "I thank you for X" or "I apologize for X" or things like that is using the topic...

Wutso-ri oe irayo si nga-ru
I thank you for dinner

It's not actually translating anything as "for", rather it's setting up a topic of what you are talking about, then within that context saying "Thank you".

Ah. OK. I haven't really studied the topic marker yet...nutshell guide says to focus elsewhere first. This just motivated me to learn it now instead of later. Thanks for that tip on saying thanks.

2. not necessarily force, just make sure your breath is held.

Gotcha. Doing that does indeed make it sound more "pop"-ish.

3. si verbs are syntactically intransitive, they can still have what is semantically a direct object, it just takes the dative because of the syntax. With isn't always done with the dative but is often done so, it's important to note that hu is only if you accompany something/one

Noted. When I wrote that sentence originally, I was really tempted to put -hu on ikran in place of the dative...glad I didn't.

Irayo again guys for the help! I've been spending so much time on this forum lately, I've been slacking on my other hobbies (programming, wii homebrew scene, PC repair). Avatar and Na'vi are just too addicting! 

Eywa Ngahu

[kewnya txamew'itan]

I say follow the guide's advice on the topical, that way madness and guesses lie.

In general, it tends to confuse people and end up being over-used, for now I'd recommend that you just learn this example instead.

[Hawnuyu atxen]

Sorry for bringing it up again!

Kehe ma Hawnuyu. -hu- is only  for accompaniment, all other uses of with in English are covered with other words, in this context, -ur is the only correct one.

Okay, i understand... (didn't realise that it was a "si-verb - with" pair), but if it's "flying with my ikran", it's -hu isn't it?

[Carborundum]

Sorry for bringing it up again!

Kehe ma Hawnuyu. -hu- is only  for accompaniment, all other uses of with in English are covered with other words, in this context, -ur is the only correct one.

Okay, i understand... (didn't realise that it was a "si-verb - with" pair), but if it's "flying with my ikran", it's -hu isn't it?

Depends on what you're trying to communicate; if you are flying together with your ikran, as in side-by-side, then sure. On the other hand, if you are flying by means of your ikran you'd use -fa.

Oh look, I made a nice illustration: (bow before my awesome paint.net skills)

Spoiler

I really should be studying...

[Feiane]

haha nice picture!

Although there is a big difference between fa and hu, I don't think the word choice changes the situation too much in this case. If you are flying ikranfa ngeyä, you are also ikranhu ngeyä.

[Carborundum]

haha nice picture!

Although there is a big difference between fa and hu, I don't think the word choice changes the situation too much in this case. If you are flying ikranfa ngeyä, you are also ikranhu ngeyä.

It's true, but I think for clarity purposes fa is preferable.
And thanks!

[Feiane]

I agree fa is preferred.

[kewnya txamew'itan]

I think that whether I fly hu or fa my ikran doesn't depend on location but rather on how I view my ikran.

From a skyperson's point of view the ikran is a mode of transport so fa would be preferred by them, but a na'vi who sees their ikran as a friend would, in my view, prefer hu in the same way a rider who has had there horse for ages and almost treats it as a person (although given the nature of tsaheylu it seems na'vi would form this attachment faster and more deeply) might say they ride with their horse not on it.

So I imagine that Neytiri would have flown hu seze whilst Jake (to start with at least) flew fa his ikran.

So it depends on the strength of attachment in my eyes.

[Carborundum]

That is a good point. Na'vi should be spoken not in a way that makes sense to us, but that would make sense to the Na'vi.

[Swoka Ikran]

I say follow the guide's advice on the topical, that way madness and guesses lie.

In general, it tends to confuse people and end up being over-used, for now I'd recommend that you just learn this example instead.

Guess I'll just memorize the example for now. Still learning to form sentences...so I'll come back to topical when I'm ready I suppose.

The discussion on -hu vs. -fa was an interesting read. If I had tried to say "flying with my ikran", i likely would have used  -hu, but would probably have meant -fa. Good to know there are two different ways to say it depending upon meaning.

As for it varying depending on how you view the ikran...I suppose some cases like this one are just personal preference.

Also, the picture corborundum posted...always good for a laugh. That Na'vi next to the ikran in the -hu example may not remain with that ikran for long due to gravity though...