Author Topic: Alien language = hard to learn?  (Read 1617 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1318
  • Karma: 33
  • wgmk is love wgmk is life
Alien language = hard to learn?
« on: July 06, 2011, 10:39:41 am »
I know English well, Chinese well, some Spanish, and a teeny bit of Latin, but even though grasping a new language such as Spanish seems real easy to me, Na'vi seems too strange...

Most of the languages I feel "easy to learn" are Indo-European. EX: when I tried to learn Japanese I was almost driven mad by the funny vocabulary that has nearly no cognates...

I have also invented a language called "Ashkskom" which attempts to have Indo-European words and very rigid and simple grammar:
Ashkskom: "Adponya ilko libmeskom ilko libskomy!" (lit. Put-to the bookshelf the books!)
English: "Put the books on the bookshelf!"
Spanish: "Pon los libros en la estantería!"

Na'vi, though, looks nothing like the above:
Na'vi (probably terrible grammar): "Yem puk ne ????"

BTW, how do you conjugate verbs in Na'vi?
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Offline Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • Posts: 1464
  • Karma: 8
  • Lu oeru 'awa 'u a new pivlltxe-'ivong Na'vi!!!!
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2011, 11:46:43 am »
well, when I started to learn (and I'm sure almost everybody) the language did look really strange to me. but don't let that scare you.
actually, after you get the hang of it, the language looks reeeaaalyyy easy (seriously). Na'vi's difficulty isn't in grammar but in the fact that it's alien and strange. Na'vi allows you to do many things that you can't do in other languages.
Quote
Na'vi, though, looks nothing like the above
like I said, it's supposed to be this way (it's alien after all).
Quote
Na'vi (probably terrible grammar): "Yem puk ne  ????"
should be pukit yem ne "puk-tseng".
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Offline Pam (P.A.'li makto)

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • Posts: 2859
  • hu Hungary
  • Karma: 51
  • Sa'nok 'Eviyä
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2011, 12:00:58 pm »
Na'vi doesn't sound "alien" to me at all. And as far as I remember, dr Frommer said something like "there's nothing in this language that couldn't exist in some Earth language", did he? (I think a real alien language would contain speech sounds that we are unable to pronounce.  :-\ Actually Na'vi sounds quite Earthish to me... Khm... er... does the word "Earthish" exist?  :-\)

facebook: soaia leNa`vi

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9860
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2011, 12:08:09 pm »
the language IS easy and simple and logical. just keep studying it. two HUGE things i love about na'vi is

NO gendered nouns, and even no articles at all for that matter
NO personal verb conjugations. only tense, aspect, mood and whatnot.

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://tirearadio.com/podcast
Learn Na'vi Discord Chat: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline 'Oma Tirea

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3874
  • Karma: 50
  • Na'vi... sleru... rusti...
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2011, 05:23:58 pm »
Quote
Na'vi (probably terrible grammar): "Yem puk ne  ????"
should be pukit yem ne "puk-tseng".

I would actually think it's pukit yem "puk-tseng"-ur

Sran, the many translations of that little English word to...

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9860
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2011, 05:45:23 pm »
put the book on the bookshelf uses dative?

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://tirearadio.com/podcast
Learn Na'vi Discord Chat: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline 'Oma Tirea

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3874
  • Karma: 50
  • Na'vi... sleru... rusti...
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2011, 05:47:16 pm »
put the book on the bookshelf uses dative?

OK scratch that idea if sìn is even better... :)

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Offline Kamean

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 10804
  • Karma: 64
  • Oe lu tute a tsun stivawm Eywayä mokrit
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2011, 06:24:29 pm »
In m opinion is easy to learn it. :)
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1318
  • Karma: 33
  • wgmk is love wgmk is life
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2011, 06:36:22 pm »
By Earth-ish I mean similar to PIE, or Proto-Indo-European. Sorry if you don't understand that, but English, Spanish, Latin, Russian, French and most of the languages on Earth (except for the Native American langs, CJK, and a few others) come from PIE.

It is the vocabulary, not the grammar or pronunciation, which bugs me. I really have to MEMORIZE it. (Quite unlike Spanish "carro" for car, "preparar" for to prepare, "tratar" to try etc)

BTW, any hint on how much time needed to master basic conversation? I'm hoping to use Na'vi as a secret code thingy, the way some people use the dumb English cipher "Pig Latin". Na'vi sounds pretty cool...
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9860
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2011, 07:07:19 pm »
By Earth-ish I mean similar to PIE, or Proto-Indo-European. Sorry if you don't understand that, but English, Spanish, Latin, Russian, French and most of the languages on Earth (except for the Native American langs, CJK, and a few others) come from PIE.

It is the vocabulary, not the grammar or pronunciation, which bugs me. I really have to MEMORIZE it. (Quite unlike Spanish "carro" for car, "preparar" for to prepare, "tratar" to try etc)

BTW, any hint on how much time needed to master basic conversation? I'm hoping to use Na'vi as a secret code thingy, the way some people use the dumb English cipher "Pig Latin". Na'vi sounds pretty cool...

about a month or two.

good luck with that, as we are still missing many words and phrase structures. this language is still being developed, as you know.

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://tirearadio.com/podcast
Learn Na'vi Discord Chat: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline Ftxavanga Txe′lan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1730
  • Karma: 32
    • My tumblr :)
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2011, 07:56:38 pm »
Na'vi doesn't sound "alien" to me at all. And as far as I remember, dr Frommer said something like "there's nothing in this language that couldn't exist in some Earth language", did he? (I think a real alien language would contain speech sounds that we are unable to pronounce.  :-\ Actually Na'vi sounds quite Earthish to me... Khm... er... does the word "Earthish" exist?  :-\)

I agree. :) Like the others said, it might look complicated at first and unlike anything you've ever learnt, but if you go further you'll quickly realize that there is a logic to it, and that the Na'vi language is absolutely possible to learn for everyone. :) Perhaps the pronunciation is more difficult for people of some ethnicities, but I believe it's feasible for everyone and I'm sure the people here would agree. :D

Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1318
  • Karma: 33
  • wgmk is love wgmk is life
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2011, 08:51:24 pm »
I'm having some trouble with "rr" but nothing else - I can look at an IPA chart and pronounce pretty much everything on it except for /!/. I know what "rr" sounds like but it really is hard to pronounce.

BTW, I think I have finally grasped the grammar thingy. Now time to go on to the vocab...

P.S. Why doesn't anybody add words to Na'vi? Or maybe I can extend it with Ashskom words...though it will sound really out of place.
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9860
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2011, 08:59:30 pm »
I'm having some trouble with "rr" but nothing else - I can look at an IPA chart and pronounce pretty much everything on it except for /!/. I know what "rr" sounds like but it really is hard to pronounce.

BTW, I think I have finally grasped the grammar thingy. Now time to go on to the vocab...

yeah, I hear some people just cant pronounce that.

Nice! :D good luck with vocab. honestly, best way is to use use use use the vocab and write and speak as much as possible.

Quote
P.S. Why doesn't anybody add words to Na'vi? Or maybe I can extend it with Ashskom words...though it will sound really out of place.

Check out the Lexical Expansion Project.. (est. Jan 2011)

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://tirearadio.com/podcast
Learn Na'vi Discord Chat: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline Dreamlight

  • Ikran Makto
  • *****
  • Posts: 944
  • us United States
  • Karma: 8
  • Srak tsun tìsìlpey livu mì hifkey luke vitra?
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2011, 09:41:09 pm »
[sni]And as far as I remember, dr Frommer said something like "there's nothing in this language that couldn't exist in some Earth language", did he? (I think a real alien language would contain speech sounds that we are unable to pronounce.  :-\ Actually Na'vi sounds quite Earthish to me... Khm... er... does the word "Earthish" exist?  :-\)

The Na'vi language actually does not have any alien concepts.  Infixes for verb conjugation--yes, some languages have them, Swahili for one.  Ejective consonants, yes, Georgian if I'm not mistaken.  Even the tripartite case system, albeit rare, is found in a few human languages.  It's more or less the same as learning any other language--one must learn the grammar, however different it is from the grammar of languages that one already knows.  The only additional difficulty is the vocabulary, which has no cognates in any human languages, other than of course actual loanwords.
http://www.reverbnation.com/inkubussukkubus
"Peace on Earth" was all it said.

Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1318
  • Karma: 33
  • wgmk is love wgmk is life
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2011, 10:07:38 pm »
Uhh, in human languages there are the single, plural, and occasionally the dual case, but never the trial case.

By the way, would actually using the plural case for "us" be WRONG in Na'vi when there are less than four of us?
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Offline Dreamlight

  • Ikran Makto
  • *****
  • Posts: 944
  • us United States
  • Karma: 8
  • Srak tsun tìsìlpey livu mì hifkey luke vitra?
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2011, 10:14:07 pm »
In the second place, the singular, dual, trial and plural are not cases, they're numbers, but in the first place the trial does exist, albeit in not many languages.
http://www.reverbnation.com/inkubussukkubus
"Peace on Earth" was all it said.

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9860
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2011, 10:47:21 pm »
Uhh, in human languages there are the single, plural, and occasionally the dual case, but never the trial case.

By the way, would actually using the plural case for "us" be WRONG in Na'vi when there are less than four of us?

if you know the number two or three, it's best (if not the only correct way) to use the correct prefix. I'm not 100% sure about that, but I've been keeping to that. surely it wouldnt be right to mix them such as ay and pxe/me in the same sentence talking about the same subject. (ayoe lu meharyu, for example, not good)

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://tirearadio.com/podcast
Learn Na'vi Discord Chat: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline omängum fra'uti

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3804
  • Karma: 127
  • Na'vi's first grammar nazi
    • Pronounced Na'vi words
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2011, 01:03:01 am »
Tolomako, Lihir, Manam and a few other languages have trial forms of pronouns, though no documented languages (according to wikipedia) have a general trial form like Na'vi.  Though some do have more complex systems of grammatical number.  (Singular, small number plural, general plural, greater number plural, etc.)

And yes, if you know the number and use the wrong form, it is grammatically wrong.  Think about this differently...  In English, if you know there is only one, is it still ok to use the plural?  The answer is no.  The dual and trial form are no different than the single form there, if you know that's the number, that's what you should use.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Offline Kamean

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 10804
  • Karma: 64
  • Oe lu tute a tsun stivawm Eywayä mokrit
Re: Alien language = hard to learn?
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2011, 02:00:59 pm »
Tolomako, Lihir, Manam and a few other languages have trial forms of pronouns, though no documented languages (according to wikipedia) have a general trial form like Na'vi.  Though some do have more complex systems of grammatical number.  (Singular, small number plural, general plural, greater number plural, etc.)

And yes, if you know the number and use the wrong form, it is grammatically wrong.  Think about this differently...  In English, if you know there is only one, is it still ok to use the plural?  The answer is no.  The dual and trial form are no different than the single form there, if you know that's the number, that's what you should use.
Kechua also have trial forms of pronounce.
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy
| XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, or the Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi