Author Topic: aysìpawmo (some questions)  (Read 601 times)

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Online Mech

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aysìpawmo (some questions)
« on: May 26, 2016, 07:55:23 am »
While composing a dialogue for my next lesson, I met with these problems :)

  • The modal verbs are a finite list, however I realized that, in english and other languages at least, some verbs can function like modal verbs. For example the expresson "come to see" or "I bring you to see". Can we treat the verb za'u as a modal verb in Na'vi? za'u tsive'a?
  • I haven't found a proper verb to translate "meet" as in "meet your family"
  • How to form expressions like "he must be home"? Not with zene, I am sure :D
  • Since nume is an intransitive verb, how do you say "I learn something"? Do we use -ri?
  • What are the exact rules for the use of ro? Are they exactly as those of English "at"? Someone is mì helku, or ro helku? Both sound correct, but what is the semantic difference?
  • What exactly are "inalienable possessions"? I know that "my hand" is inalienable possession and I shold use topical rather than genitive... but what else?  soaiä hapxìtu, or soaiari hapxìtu (member of a family).
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 08:13:48 am by Mech »

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Re: aysìpawmo (some questions)
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2016, 08:27:27 am »
The modal verbs are a finite list, however I realized that, in english and other languages at least, some verbs can function like modal verbs. For example the expresson "come to see" or "I bring you to see". Can we treat the verb za'u as a modal verb in Na'vi? za'u tsive'a?
Za'u is not a modal verb, therefore one can't use za'u as a classical modal verb. One way to give it a "modal verb-like touch" is to use fte like za'u fte tsive'a come (in order) to see

I haven't found a proper verb to translate "meet" as in "meet your family"
meet your family = ultxa si ngeyä soaiahu :)

ultxa si = meet intentionally
ultxarun = encounter, meet by chance

Example from Na'viteri:
Poltxe po san oe ke tsängun ’ivawnìm futa kutuhu oeyä ultxa si.
He said that sadly, he can’t avoid meeting with his enemies.
(and some more)

How to form expressions like "he must be home"? Not with zene, I am sure :D
Why not? ???
Po zene tivok kelkuti

Since nume is an intransitive verb, how do you say "I learn something"? Do we use -ri?
X-(ì)ri oe nume - X is the thing one (want to) learn.
'Uori oe nume - I learn something.

What are the exact rules for the use of ro? Are they exactly as those of English "at"? Someone is mì helku, or ro helku? Both sound correct, but what is the semantic difference?
Yeah, there were some discussions. https://forum.learnnavi.org/prefixes-infixes-and-suffixes/split-topic-ro-vs-mi/ (check reply #13)

What exactly are "inalienable possessions"? I know that "my hand" is inalienable possession and I shold use topical rather than genitive... but what else?  soaiä hapxìtu, or soairi hapxìtu (member of a family).
Usually stuff one can't "share". These are mostly bodyparts, but I am not sure if abstract things counts too (like ideas).
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 11:21:28 am by Tìtstewan »

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Online Mech

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Re: aysìpawmo (some questions)
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2016, 08:51:58 am »
Thank you. As for my "must" example, I meant the sense in expressions like "it must be cold outside". I don't remember the proper linguistic term. I have heard that zene is never used in this sense.

Some more questions: is soaia an irregular word or its irregular genitive is expected in all nouns that end in -ia?

Is ra'a used by itself, as in "Don't!", or has it to accompany an imperative verb?

Offline Plumps

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Re: aysìpawmo (some questions)
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2016, 11:10:16 am »
The modal verbs are a finite list, however I realized that, in english and other languages at least, some verbs can function like modal verbs. For example the expresson "come to see" or "I bring you to see". Can we treat the verb za'u as a modal verb in Na'vi? za'u tsive'a?
Za'u is not a modal verb, therefore one can't use za'u as a classical modal verb. One way to give it a "modal verb-like touch" is to use fte like za'u fte tsive'a come (in order) to see

I haven't found a proper verb to translate "meet" as in "meet your family"
meet your family = ulta si ngeyä soaia :)

Clearly ultxa si ngeyä soaiahu ;)

“meet s.b.” is always with “with” in Na’vi when it’s meant intentionally; ultxarun is transitive anyway. It’s true that English has far more modal-like structures; “demand to do s.t.” is one that comes to mind. Usually Na’vi then has another structure, if it’s transitive futa is used, fngo’ pol futa aynga za’u, “he demands you to come” (lit. he demands that you come)


What are the exact rules for the use of ro? Are they exactly as those of English "at"? Someone is mì helku, or ro helku? Both sound correct, but what is the semantic difference?
Yeah, there were some discussions. https://forum.learnnavi.org/prefixes-infixes-and-suffixes/split-topic-ro-vs-mi/ (check reply #13)

Usually it’s the same as in English, meaning local (at a place) and temporal (at a time), but remember that when you say “I’m at home” you’d rather use oel tok kelkuti. When you say “he waited at the house” then I’d use ro helku/lok kelku po poley.

What exactly are "inalienable possessions"? I know that "my hand" is inalienable possession and I shold use topical rather than genitive... but what else?  soaiä hapxìtu, or soairi hapxìtu (member of a family).
Usually stuff one can't "share". These are mostly bodyparts, but I am not sure if abstract things counts too (like ideas).

True, for now we only know of body parts that are treated as inalienable possessions. Other languages treat family members as well but we don’t know (yet) if this is true in Na’vi.

Thank you. As for my "must" example, I meant the sense in expressions like "it must be cold outside". I don't remember the proper linguistic term. I have heard that zene is never used in this sense.

True.
That’s what the ‹ats› infix is for if you talk about an assumption.

Pol tatsok kelkuti ~ he must be at home.

Some more questions: is soaia an irregular word or its irregular genitive is expected in all nouns that end in -ia?

The latter. We don’t have that many. The only other one I can think of is tìftia but I’m not sure if the rule applies here because here the stress is on the last syllable.

Is rä'ä used by itself, as in "Don't!", or has it to accompany an imperative verb?

At least it’s not documented.
As of yet we’ve just seen it with a verb.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 11:21:41 am by Plumps »

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Re: aysìpawmo (some questions)
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2016, 11:19:51 am »
The inference or assumption version of the English "must", probably what Mech was asking about is never zene but it's usually the second position <ats> infix if i recall correctly. Or could just use a word like skxakep or kxawm.


As for rä'ä by itself without a verb... I'm not sure. I'd say it's PROBABLY okay if the verb is obvious or clearly understood even if ommitted.

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Re: aysìpawmo (some questions)
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2016, 11:35:57 am »
Clearly ultxa si ngeyä soaiahu ;)
I know I've forgot something. Fixed! :o

And irayo for mentioning more details. :D

As for rä'ä by itself without a verb... I'm not sure. I'd say it's PROBABLY okay if the verb is obvious or clearly understood even if ommitted.
A) Srake, tsun ayoeng yivom fìmautit?
B) Rä'äKehe! Fìmauti lu txumnga'!


^One example where rä'ä could occur alone. :)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2016, 03:13:31 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Re: aysìpawmo (some questions)
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2016, 02:54:59 pm »
As for rä'ä by itself without a verb... I'm not sure. I'd say it's PROBABLY okay if the verb is obvious or clearly understood even if ommitted.
A) Tsun ayoeng yivom fìmautit?
B) Rä'ä! Fìmauti lu txumnga'!


^One example where rä'ä could occure alone. :)
We do not have any attested example where rä'ä stands alone, so I'd would be very careful to propose such usage. Your example is clearly yes/no question:
A) Srake tsun ayoeng yivom fìmautit?
B) Kehe! Fìmauti lu txumnga'!


Rä'ä is used as imperative (with verb) and it is possible to place it after (instead of in front of) verb for extra emphasize:
    
Oeti ’ampi rä’ä, ma skxawng! (source)
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


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Re: aysìpawmo (some questions)
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2016, 03:12:07 pm »
Derp, I see what I did there. I should not write stuff right after returning from work...

But what I tried to say is that in a conservation could be a case/situation one say rä'ä. Of course, it would be great to have an official example where rä'ä is used alone.

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Re: aysìpawmo (some questions)
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2016, 03:17:14 pm »
Derp, I see what I did there. I should not write stuff right after returning from work...

But what I tried to say is that in a conservation could be a case/situation one say rä'ä. Of course, it would be great to have an official example where rä'ä is used alone.
You probably mean something like using si alone, what is possible, if you can infer missing part of the verb from context (although this usage is extremely rare). I would agree, when Paul confirms it :)
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


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Re: aysìpawmo (some questions)
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2016, 09:34:10 am »

Is rä'ä used by itself, as in "Don't!", or has it to accompany an imperative verb?

At least it’s not documented.
As of yet we’ve just seen it with a verb.
As I think more about it, it appears less and less probable, that rä'ä could be possible to use alone.
Rä'ä is just like ke (which can't be used alone):

Oel talyaron palulukanit - I will hunt (and kill) thanator.
Kehe! Lu lehrrap! - NO, it's dangerous!
Using ke this way seems correct to me, so rä'ä also requires something - and si seems to be good accompaniment:

(Tsakem) rä'ä si
! - Don't (do that)! Rä'ä here is just n't part, not the whole don't - si is needed.
I know it looks like English-like construction (where negation uses auxiliary verb), what doesn't need to be necessary in other languages, but still this exaplanation seems correct to me.


Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


 

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