Grammar questions

[ìleyu Seze]

Kaltxì everyone! I just started learning Na'vi, and I have a few questions.
So far I've seen two different words for 'and' (sì and ulte) and I wanted to know if you could use either one, or if there's a special rule for which one use in a particular sentence. And the word aytsmuktu has been bugging me. I know ay- is the plural marker and tsmukan is brother/tsmuke is sister, so my guess is it means siblings, but I want to make sure. I was also wondering if there are any words for 'of' or 'about', because I didn't see those in the dictionary?
Irayo frapo!

[DrBinder]

Aytsmuktu is incorrect. Recall your lesson on lenition: When using ay to make a word plural, if the word starts with either t or ts, then it's just converted to s. In this case, the correct word is "Aysmuktu."

...as for "of" and "about," you would use the topical marker -ri. Example:
Oe-ri tukru lu lehrrap
"(For me) The spear is dangerous."
You use the topical marker to indicate the topic of something, and has the rough english equivalent to "as for ___," but used much more frequently in Na'vi.


...all this and more are covered in the Crash Course on Linguistic Terminology- highly recommended, here: http://www.learnnavi.org/docs/Linguistic-terminology-crash-course.pdf

As for the two forms of and, someone get a grammar nazi in here- I haven't gotten around to studying that part yet.

OK, I've gotten word on the two: Sì is used to connect words together, and Ulte is used to connect clauses. For instance: If you were making a list (I ate this AND that), you would use sì. If you are making two individual points (I love to play soccer, AND I like to play football), you would use Ulte.

...any grammar nazis available to either solidify or yell at me with the correction? Please do if I'm wrong here.

[ìleyu Seze]

Irayo! Yeah, I was wondering about doing lenition with aysmuktu, so thanks for the correction/confirmation (I'm really awful at remembering which consonants to use lenition on).
I wanted to know about the whole of/about thing because I'm doing a presentation on Pandora and the Na'vi on Friday in my english class, and I wanted to start off with the introduction totally in Na'vi. Topic marker is definitely going to help.
And I'm so so glad someone could finally tell me about the sì/ulte thing, that makes so much sense! 
Irayo (again)

[SanguineEpitaph]

@ ma ìleyu Seze:

That's an interesting concept! I wish my English class let me do that. How are you going to introduce the presentation (out of pure interest).


@ ma DrBinder:

A more formal way is to say that ulte connects clauses and sì connects nouns, adjectives, etc. But you had it right! 

[omängum fra'uti]

I wouldn't go crazy with topic marker.  IMO people on the forums are way too topic happy and using where it isn't really needed.

Typically "of" is expressed with the genitive.  For example "aylì'u Pawlä" - words of Paul.  (It could also be read as "Paul's words" but, really, they are the same thing.)  Or "Na'viyä hapxì" - part of the people.

That said, the topic can often stand in for the genitive, however there is no reason for it to unless you really are introducing a topic, or want to make it REALLY clear what you are talking about.

[dky.tehkingd.u]

I think in general, beginners are usually discouraged from using the topical marker. Personally, I use it mainly for emphasis.

[kewnya txamew'itan]

you would use the topical marker -ri.

I wouldn't use it here.

As this is a single clause with only two nouns, no topic exists.

If there are a large number of different nouns and several clauses/sentences, then a topic may exist. If a topic exists, then you might use the topical marker to show it but only if it cannot be inferred from context (which it normally can be).

The main times to use a topical marker are when either, it would be confusing as to what you were on about without it (not often the case), if a noun is repeated a lot and you want to drop subsequent ones or if you feel that it's very important to emphasise who is doing/be affected by the verb.

In general, the rule is the opposite of reefing sails. If you feel even the slightest doubt about whether to use it, don't. (The general rule for reefing sails is that if you're wondering whether you need to reef, you probably should).





Ma dky.tehkingd.u you can use it for emphasis but this is one of it's less common uses, even then intonation should be able to carry it more easily than the topical.

[omängum fra'uti]

I'd even go so far as to say "If you think you NEED a topic marker, don't use it".  You never need a topic marker.  Period.  It is possible to say anything you can say in Na'vi without ever using a topic.  So if you encounter a situation where you think you need it, it either means you're looking at it wrong, forgetting something, or there's gaps in your knowledge about what you are saying should be done correctly.  (I've been knowingly guilty of the last at times.)

[kewnya txamew'itan]

In almost all cases, yes.

In some though, the topical, whilst not necessary, does allow you to say something more concisely (something Frommer has advocated in the past) or musically.

For example, if I am a writing a sentence about what I was doing:

Oe na'rìngmì rarman a krr oel palulukanit tse'a ha oe tamul ulte oe nulwin lu a talun oe rerey mi

(I was waling in the woods when I saw a thanator so I ran and, because I was faster, I still live)

could be written much more concisely/eloquently as:

oeri na'rìngmì rarman a krr palulukanit tse'a ha tamul ulte nulwin lu a talun rerey mi.

[ìleyu Seze]

Well that explains a lot, I guess I'll just avoid the topic marker then. But how would I say (for my presentation) "I'm going to talk about Pandora and the Na'vi.", or should I just not use a sentence like that?

And could one of the grammar nazis correct my rather short introductory paragraph? I don't know how much sense it'll make because I couldn't find a lot of words for what I wanted to say (and because I'm not very good at it anyway):
"Kaltxì, oel ayngati kame, aysmukan sì aysmuke. Na'vi lu fteu sì sevin, slä tsatseng lu nìtxana nume. Oel kin ayngati tìng mikyun tìnìltsan, ulte kllfriyo', ayskxawng!"
And I was intending to say "Hello, I see you, brothers and sisters. Na'vi is easy and beautiful, but there is much to learn. I need you to listen well, and be responsible, morons!"

[DrBinder]

"Kaltxì, oel ayngati kame, ma aysmukan sì aysmuke. Na'vi lu ftue sì sevin, slä tsatseng lu nìtxana nume. Oel kin ayngati tìng mikyun tìnìltsan, ulte kllfriyo', ma ayskxawng!"


Words in bold are corrections/additions that I am very certain about. The one phrase in italics I think needs to just be re-written, mainly because I think you're using tsatseng wrong. The italicized phrase literally translates to "That place over there is a lot to [learn]." I also think that nume needs an infix of some sort to make it make sense... <iv> perhaps? (I'm not a grammar nazi, so I'm probably wrong about that).

[SanguineEpitaph]

Kaltxì, oel ayngati kame, aysmukan sì aysmuke.

Looks good. You could just say aysmuk if you wanted to make it read shorter... Also, you need to have the vocative ma before aysmuk(-an, -é). The vocative means you're addressing someone by name, title, relation, etc.

Na'vi lu fteu sì sevin, slä tsatseng lu nìtxana nume.

fteu should be ftue according to this. Also, tsatseng refers to a location, I believe. You could say:

...tafral nìtxan ke nivume.
...tafral nìtxan ke n<iv>ume.
...therefore much not to learn.

Oel kin ayngati tìng mikyun tìnìltsan, ulte kllfriyo', ayskxawng!"

This is sketchy. Therefore, I would say:

Oel ayngati kin stivawm. Ayskxawng kllfrivo'!
Oe-l ay+nga-ti kin st<iv>awm. Ay+skxawng-ìl kllfrivo'!
I you all need to listen. Morons be responsible!

I need you all to listen. Be responsible, morons!
Edit: You may be able to say stiveiawm since the laudative implies happiness or good feelings, it could be like "listening well" and being happy about it, too! Think of it like "listen ** YAAAAY!!!!! **"

I dunno how accurate that is. I hope it helps, and I hope your presentation goes over well!

PS I'm unsure if you can stack verbs like "need to listen"...
PPS I don't consider myself a grammar nazi....yet.

[ìleyu Seze]

Thanks so much for the help everyone, much appreciated!  I knew tsatseng referred to location, but I didn't know what else to put :\ didn't mean to spell ftue wrong either, but that's what I get for not looking it up. I always wanted to know what the ma was for, I see that everywhere, but it's not in the pocket guide, so thank you for clarification.
My class won't know if it's incorrect or not either way, they're just a bunch of Avatar-hating ayskxawng that think I'm crazy (but I want it to be as correct as possible) 

[SanguineEpitaph]

Thanks so much for the help everyone, much appreciated!  I knew tsatseng referred to location, but I didn't know what else to put :\ didn't mean to spell ftue wrong either, but that's what I get for not looking it up. I always wanted to know what the ma was for, I see that everywhere, but it's not in the pocket guide, so thank you for clarification.
My class won't know if it's incorrect or not either way, they're just a bunch of Avatar-hating ayskxawng that think I'm crazy (but I want it to be as correct as possible) 

Just as long as you have the satisfaction of knowing that you had impeccable grammar.

And then at the end, you say "Aynga vrrtep lu."