Author Topic: Having trouble with different "That", "this" These" etc  (Read 430 times)

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Offline Karin

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Having trouble with different "That", "this" These" etc
« on: April 04, 2017, 06:17:56 pm »
Futa, Fwa, ...oh boy. memrise has me stumped. is there any other way I can remember all the different "That" versions   ??? I am stumped
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Having trouble with different "That", "this" These" etc
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2017, 06:52:41 pm »
Futa, Fwa, ...oh boy. memrise has me stumped. is there any other way I can remember all the different "That" versions   ??? I am stumped

Kaltxì! Yeahhhh there are a LOT of "that"s in Na'vi. This is because of grammar as well as the fact in English "that" is used in so many ways for different things without changing.

Maybe this could help with the "F-words": Fwa, Fula, Futa, Furia

http://tirea.learnnavi.org/material/lessons/13c.php

There are others too like the "T-words" versions of those: Tsawa, Tsala, Tsata, Tsaria

the T-words have a more "distant" feel than the F-words, probably might be more common with something less "at-hand". It's because F-words actually stem from "this thing" and T-words stem from "that thing"

And then there is tsaw (= tsa'u). Which is the no-cases-added basic pronoun "that" as in "that thing [over there]"

tsnì can also be transalted as "that" and it's used with only a small set of verbs instead of the word futa. (Because these verbs are not transitive, so they can't use futa)

If you have any more questions, I'd be happy to clarify :)

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Having trouble with different "That", "this" These" etc
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2017, 12:11:01 am »

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Having trouble with different "That", "this" These" etc
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2017, 04:58:43 am »
Futa, Fwa, ...oh boy. memrise has me stumped. is there any other way I can remember all the different "That" versions   ??? I am stumped

Totally understandable, ma Karin, and another proof for me that we can’t simply take over the dictionary definitions for these kinds of courses.

If you want to have a positive learning experience there has to be at least a chance to get it right ;) So, tì’efumì oeyä, whoever is in charge of the course needs to fix it somehow. Isn’t there a possibility to allow for variants as well?

You are right, though, there is an abundance of these words, as Tirea already hinted at …

fwafwa ultxarolun oel ngati, lu sìltsan, “that I met you by chance, is good” (lit.: the fact that I met you is good)
fulafula nga ke ’efu ye vingkap oeti, “it occurs to me that you are not satisfied” (lit.: the fact that you don’t feel satisfied occurs to me)
futaoel fpìl futa nga ke ’efu, “I think that you are not satisfied” (lit.: I think the fact that is: you are not satisfied)
furiafuria nga oer srung soli, irayo nìtxan, “thanks a lot for helping me” (lit.: for the fact that you helped me, much thanks)
(those forms also could be expressed through the tsaw-forms: tsawa, tsala, tsata, tsaria but they seem to be uncommon)

tsnìsìlpey oe tsnì ’ìyevefu nga ye, “I hope that you will be satisfied” (only used with the verbs: ätxäle si, sìlpey, rangal, mowar si and optionally with srefey, srefpìl)

kuma/akum (in result clauses) – lolu fe’ fìtxan kuma nga ke ’efu nitram, “it was so bad that you don’t feel happy” (i.e., something happens in a way that as a result something else is the case)

fmawntastolawm oel fmawnta fo new hivum, “I heard (that) they want to leave” (lit.: I heard the news that they want to leave)

Plus the ‘normal’ words for “that,”

tsaw (tsa’u) – tsaw lu sìltsan, “that (thing) is good”
tsal (tsa’ul) – tsal oeti ’eykolefu keftxo, “that (fact) made me upset”
tsat(i) (tsa’ut(i)) – tsun oe tsive’a tsat, “I can see that (fact/thing)”
tsari (tsa’uri) – tsari irayo si, “thanks for that”

tsakem (in all its case forms) – po spolä ftu ’awkx. tsakem lolu lehrrap, “he jumped from the cliff. that (action) was dangerous.”

And I can see how this is overwhelming. :-\

Especially for the f- and ts-words, one way to get used to them is propably to make yourself aware where they are coming from. They are really just shortcuts from a root word (fì’u/tsa’u) with their respective case endings; and however you want to use them in a sentence, you need to make them fit in the grammatical structure/necessities.

Same as we have an abundance of personal pronouns in Na’vi, if you think about it, that just exist because of the trial system. (We don’t have them all in the memrise course, right? We just learn the basic forms and deduce the rest through our grammatical knowledge.)

Offline Tirea Aean

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Totally understandable, ma Karin, and another proof for me that we can’t simply take over the dictionary definitions for these kinds of courses.

If you want to have a positive learning experience there has to be at least a chance to get it right ;) So, tì’efumì oeyä, whoever is in charge of the course needs to fix it somehow. Isn’t there a possibility to allow for variants as well?


Any Memrise entry can be easily edited. I have access as well as a couple others who had volunteered to maintain the course database. Memrise also does indeed have support for synonyms. I'll have to comb through every word and ensure its variants are synonyms so that "choosing​ the wrong variant" is not an issue anymore.

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Offline Plumps

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Any Memrise entry can be easily edited. I have access as well as a couple others who had volunteered to maintain the course database. Memrise also does indeed have support for synonyms. I'll have to comb through every word and ensure its variants are synonyms so that "choosing​ the wrong variant" is not an issue anymore.

Kosman. Irayo nìtxan! :D It will help us in the long run, I’m sure.

Offline Karin

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Re: Having trouble with different "That", "this" These" etc
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2017, 08:27:17 am »
Ma Plumps, I also have a grammatical question, I see the "-ti" Ending to "Oe" when you give the example  sentence for Fula.
Should Nga be Ngal? Or am I incorrect?
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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Having trouble with different "That", "this" These" etc
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2017, 08:42:28 am »
No, because oeti is the object of vingkap and nga is the subject of 'efu.
The subject of vingkap is nothing else than your fula clause (more precisely fì'ul).

When you see different clauses in a sentence, separate them so that you can extract every mini-sentence plus the main clause (the basic sentence). It's easier to understand and correct the content.

Ful/a nga ke ’efu ye/ vingkap oeti.

Fì'ul vingkap oeti
Nga ke 'efu ye
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 08:49:38 am by Vawmataw »

Offline Tirea Aean

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Ma Plumps, I also have a grammatical question, I see the "-ti" Ending to "Oe" when you give the example  sentence for Fula.

Yes, vingkap works sort of backwards of how you think. The structure is:

Vingkap oeti fula {stuff}.
{Stuff} occurs to me. / {Stuff} pops into my mind.

fula {stuff} is the subject. (Thing doing the action)
vingkap is the verb.
oeti is the direct object. (Thing receiving the action)

This verb/sentence has no equivalent in English. So it does not have a 1:1 translation exactly as it is in Na'vi.


Quote
Should Nga be Ngal? Or am I incorrect?

With 'efu, we have these two possible structures:

[noun]-l 'efu [noun]-ti
"[noun] feels [the noun]"
Ex: Ngal 'efu hufweti. = You feel the wind.

and

[noun] 'efu [adjective of emotion].
[noun] feels [adjective of emotion].
Ex: Nga 'efu nitram. = You feel happy.

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Offline Blue Elf

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Totally understandable, ma Karin, and another proof for me that we can’t simply take over the dictionary definitions for these kinds of courses.

If you want to have a positive learning experience there has to be at least a chance to get it right ;) So, tì’efumì oeyä, whoever is in charge of the course needs to fix it somehow. Isn’t there a possibility to allow for variants as well?


Any Memrise entry can be easily edited. I have access as well as a couple others who had volunteered to maintain the course database. Memrise also does indeed have support for synonyms. I'll have to comb through every word and ensure its variants are synonyms so that "choosing​ the wrong variant" is not an issue anymore.

via LG-K550 (Tapatalk)
Some time ago I changed definition of f-words in Memrise to make easier to find what is the correct answer. If anyone has proposals to make it better, let me know. Related to synonyms, honestly, I don't think it works well there (at least not in all cases). On some words, when you enter synonym, it says "you entered English form of the word" (or something like that). So I changed some definitions and removed their synonyms, other wise some answers were never accepted although fully correct.
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