How we know what we know

[wm.annis]

While I'm sure Fox, Cameron and Frommer all expected that there would be some interest in the Na'vi language, I doubt very much there were prepared for the significant interest that has actually been developing.  Based on this interview, it looks like they hadn't even started plans for publishing Na'vi language material when the film came out,

Frommer noted that snippets of Na'vi are finding their way onto the Internet - some correct, some incorrect. "What I would love to do is get something out to the people, but I can't do it on my own. I have to do it in conjunction with the movie people," he said.

Those people have been a little busy - which is understandable, considering that "Avatar" has been America's top-grossing movie for the past two weeks. But once the holidays are over and school is back in sesson, Frommer is planning to check in with Twentieth Century Fox, the studio behind "Avatar," and with Lightstorm Entertainment, director James Cameron's production company.

In the very best scenario I can imagine, we'll get a full Na'vi grammar in a few weeks, via some official web site for the film.  The much more likely situation is that they'll write a book and we'll have to wait months (9-12, I'd guess) before we get official documentation.  It would be nice to be surprised, and get something much sooner, but I'm not going to hold my breath.  I hope any book gets much more care than the Activist Survival Guide did.

In light of this delay in getting official material, I thought it might be useful and informative to let people know where the things they're learning are coming from.

Our earliest hints about the language came out in interviews with Frommer.  Na'vi had ejective consonants; it had a tripartite case division.  We had a few phrases.

The big break came when someone among the IMDB refugees on their own forum posted the Na'vi word list, transcribed from the Activist Survival Guide.  That list was republished in this public blog post.  All current dictionaries are based on that initial post.  So, now we had enough vocabulary to start analyzing the sentences coming out in Frommer interviews.

People really interested in the history of this will find the "history" tab of the Na'vi language Wikipedia page valuable.  Here's the change I made to the article on the day I saw the UGO Movie Blog article — changelog.  This was our first evidence for the ergative and accusative endings.

I really want to emphasize is — Frommer has never explicitly told us how to form the ergative or the accusative.  Much of the grammar that appears in summaries all over the web has come from linguistic analysis of the texts we have.  Now, Frommer himself will be familiar with this process.  In interviews he has mentioned that he has used Klingon in exams for his students, as well as invented languages of his own for this purpose.  Anyone who has studied morphology in an introductory linguistics course will have seen those sorts of quizzes.  We don't know what grade Frommer would give us for our current analysis.  Regardless, there are really big gaps in our knowledge.  For example, notice all the question marks in this pronoun chart.  Unless Frommer starts giving out examples like "the two of you will have hunted three of us" we're going to have to deal with incomplete knowledge until official publication.

Another big break came in the form of Frommer's guest blog post on Language Log (a well-known linguistics blog I recommend to everyone).  We got a clear statement about the sound system of the language, and some details about what Na'vi grammar was like, and though we got some verb examples to analyze, we got only a high-level description, not much detail.  Further, the post was written for a linguistics audience, and includes sentences like "additionally, adjectives, genitives, and relative clauses can either precede or follow their heads," which is perfectly clear to someone trained in linguistics, but may be puzzling for most of the people now wanting to learn Na'vi.

It is our deep reliance on linguistic analysis that motivated me to start the Corpus page on the LearnNavi.org wiki.  So much of what we know is squeezed from this very small collection of texts.

[Plumps]

Thanks, wm.annis
it's a good summary and a reminder that a lot of what we do here is speculation ... or out of linguistic analysis at best! I would like to see something a bit more official as well. Not that I don't appreciate what people here do in analysing every snibbet that makes it to our eyes and ears but there is a different quality to a book whose author is (hopefully) Frommer himself or whether I'm reading a web page with sentences and new found words where I would have to be careful in order to learn that word or phrase within the "canon" of the language.

The big break came when someone among the IMDB refugees on their own forum posted the Na'vi word list, transcribed from the Activist Survival Guide.  That list was republished in this public blog post.  All current dictionaries are based on that initial post.  So, now we had enough vocabulary to start analyzing the sentences coming out in Frommer interviews.

I had no idea about these pages - thanks for posting them again!

Irayo!

[omängum fra'uti]

I've been wondering about something...

Regardless, there are really big gaps in our knowledge.  For example, notice all the question marks in this pronoun chart.  Unless Frommer starts giving out examples like "the two of you will have hunted three of us" we're going to have to deal with incomplete knowledge until official publication.

And most of those are in a "trial" form column, which is completely empty.  Why is that even there?  Has there been any evidence such a thing exists, or did that come from someone misunderstanding "tripartite" and it's just stuck around since?

[wm.annis]

Why is that even there?  Has there been any evidence such a thing exists, or did that come from someone misunderstanding "tripartite" and it's just stuck around since?

Frommer speaketh — "Number (singular, dual, trial, plural) is indicated by prefixes, each of which triggers lenition."

[Taronyu]

This is the single best post I think I've seen on this forum.

Thank you.

Right. What now, wm.annis? Do we continue with what we have? I'm going to keep working trying to collect all of the information in one single document, and I'm also going through and back-editing my dictionary to make parts-of-speech, in particular, more accurate. Hopefully, with that, we can actually have all of the information that not only we've been given, but that we derived. I think this is a good course of action.

I'm going to keep going with what we have now. Some of it may be wrong. What we need is for people to be extra-vigilant. The other day I derived some form, and someone called me down on it for being Indo-european-centric. This is exactly the sort of thing we need. Hmm.

[Beduino]

This is the single best post I think I've seen on this forum.

Thank you.

Right. What now, wm.annis? Do we continue with what we have? I'm going to keep working trying to collect all of the information in one single document, and I'm also going through and back-editing my dictionary to make parts-of-speech, in particular, more accurate. Hopefully, with that, we can actually have all of the information that not only we've been given, but that we derived. I think this is a good course of action.

I'm going to keep going with what we have now. Some of it may be wrong. What we need is for people to be extra-vigilant. The other day I derived some form, and someone called me down on it for being Indo-european-centric. This is exactly the sort of thing we need. Hmm.

Really, you don't know how I support this (the grammar you're making right?)
Most of guys that are helping get this new stuff from derived words, etc, have some formation in the linguistic area (at least I understood that ^^) and are participating in the discovery.

But I'm really getting lost on those new infixes, etc. In school I never learned this stuff (I prefer biology, chemistry ) And going through all those threads, reading each one opinion, I feel I can't run along with the debate xD 

Have all in the same place, with explanation, would be awesome I wan't to learn Na'vi, and I shall keep studing. It's helping me understand better my own language . BUT, all the help is welcome! ^^

Well, I gotta say ty! and You guys are pretty smart

[Taronyu]

Thanks Beduino.

Hey wm.annis, I've done something because of this and edited my dictionary, so that every single word in it is now sourced. I think this is a definite help. Thanks a lot for this thread.

[Plumps]

Ma Taronyu,

Wow, just now had a quick look at your dictionary ... that's amazing work! Thanks so much for that!
I hate myself for finding mistakes all the time  but I guess it can only help to improve the quality of what we have, and it's such a minor detail: page 4, suffix entry "-íri" should be "-ìri", shouldn't it?

Kìyevame

[wm.annis]

Hey wm.annis, I've done something because of this and edited my dictionary, so that every single word in it is now sourced.

Excellent!  I think it's important that references like this be scrupulous in their sourcing, until we get official sources.

[Prrton]

In light of this delay in getting official material, I thought it might be useful and informative to let people know where the things they're learning are coming from.

...It is our deep reliance on linguistic analysis that motivated me to start the Corpus page on the LearnNavi.org wiki.  So much of what we know is squeezed from this very small collection of texts.

Irayo ma, tsmuk.an. Tì.tslam fì'.tì.omum.yä tsranten nìtxan fte ayoe tsun nari s-iv-i fte fa ayronsem a.law nì.mawey ft-iv-ia sì n-iv-ume.

Thank you, brother. It's very important to understand this knowledge so that we can take care to study and learn with level heads.

________________________

[Txur’Itan]

Aside from learning more about Na'vi.  I fell like I am learning practical things about learning other languages whenever Annis makes a post. 

Good stuff.

[Eight]

While I'm sure Fox, Cameron and Frommer all expected that there would be some interest in the Na'vi language, I doubt very much there were prepared for the significant interest that has actually been developing.  Based on this interview, it looks like they hadn't even started plans for publishing Na'vi language material when the film came out,

It seems like they hoped some people would jump on it - but didn't count their chickens. Sensible really.

Personally, I'd like to see an official publication on the material and grammar used in the film and the other "authentic" sources. Give us a few new words, a few new bits of grammar/clarifications etc. while working on a more complete treatment of the language.

If I was Fox/Frommer/Cameron, I'd also be a little concerned about the lifespan of interest. By comparison, Star Trek had a long and established following prior to them publishing Klingon materials. They were better able to know their audience was there and would stay there. By the time the next film comes out (and baring in mind how many more IMAX 3D films are coming out this year) it's quite possible much of the interest will have dissolved. Of course, we'll still be here but the question is whether that will be enough for them to make a profit (or even cover costs) by supporting us.

Edit: Oooh... I've just become a tawtute. \m/
Edit2: And then spelt it wrong. I need to study harder.
Edit3: Ack, this thread is older than I thought.