is there a "ma" between "kaltxì" and "frapo"?

[judytuna]

In like January, on Skype, I remember asking why everybody said "kaltxì frapo" instead of "kaltxì ma frapo" and was told by everybody that "frapo" was a special case, and to use "ma" only when directly addressing someone.

Was that wrong? It WAS a long time ago, but it seems to have been etched indelibly into the community.

I am trying to do a search for it, and "kaltì ma frapo" and "kaltxì frapo" BOTH occur all the time. So which one is right? The only thread explicitly about the issue (that I can find so far) is this one: http://forum.learnnavi.org/beginners/frapo-and-ma/ The quote from wmannis is:

I am not entirely comfortable using frapo this way — I usually say ma sute, instead — but if you are going to use it with kaltxì, then you are correct that it needs ma.

So then... why does "kaltxì frapo" still get said by everyone? How did this happen? Ack! Could you give me some better instances in which to use "frapo" instead of just a direct translation of "hello everyone" ? Am I completely out of the loop??

Irayo! (Irayo ma frapo or Irayo frapo? haha)

[omängum fra'uti]

http://forum.learnnavi.org/language-updates/naviya-the-other-vocative/

Kaltxì frapo
Kaltxì ma frapo
Kaltxì frapoya

All are acceptable

Because frapo is a pronoun, you wouldn't necessarily use ma with it.  But it could borderline be used as decoration.  Since it is a singular noun that denotes a group, you can also use the other vocative -ya on it.

[Kyle Kepone]

isn't it also true that "ma" is a decoration, used like the word "o" in english? So "kaltxì ma tsmuke" would be hello o sister. Basically, it can go there, but it isn't necessary, right?

[Carborundum]

No, it is entirely necessary. The ma = o analogy isn't really apt precisely because vocatives in English are (no longer) required, but in Na'vi they are.

[omängum fra'uti]

The O is archaic in English and has fallen out of favor, but in many languages a vocative is required when addressing someone in that manner.  As far as we know, Na'vi is one of those cases.  The reason it's optional with frapo is because frapo is a pronoun where normally you wouldn't use a vocative, whereas normally you'd use the vocative with a description of who you're talking to.

[Kyle Kepone]

Haha irayo ma smuk for clearing that up.