Just wanted to check myself here on this sentence.

Started by Eyamsiyu, November 08, 2010, 10:52:25 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Eyamsiyu

Basically I am now writing a paper for my composition class that argues that the North Carolina educational system should required a foreign language study at an earlier age.  I wanted to start the paper/presentation a bit differently, so I decided to go to a language that I know best to begin my paper with: Na'vi (even though Spanish is probably the wiser choice, I don't know it as well as Na'vi ;D ).

So, with that said, I have written a small bit of Na'vi to begin my paper.  I wanted to make sure what I had written is correct, and the like.

"Kaltxì, ulte trr lefpom, ma ayeylan.  Fitrr oe pìylltxe lawk lun ayeveng zene nivume lì'fya amuve."

I'm fairly certain what I have so far has issues, but I'm not sure what exactly.

So, may I ask your assistance in how to correct such a sentence, so I don't end up like Conan O'brien? ;)


"... The only people that are going to have a chance to make a living playing music is the people who do exactly what they believe in ... they have to believe in this so much that they are ready to die for it." - Jojo Mayer

On indefinite leave.  Will be back periodically. Feel free to say Kaltxí: I'll get back when I can. :D

My facebook.  Please mention you are from LN if you ch

Sireayä mokri

I think it's great that you have chosen Na'vi for your presentation :) There are however some mistakes here:

"Fìtrr oe pìylltxe lunìri a ayeveng zene nivume lì'fyat amuve."

The rest is correct.
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

omängum fra'uti

Quote from: Sireayä mokri on November 08, 2010, 11:29:45 AM
I think it's great that you have chosen Na'vi for your presentation :) There are however some mistakes here:

"Fìtrr oe pìylltxe lunìri a ayeveng zene nivume lì'fyat amuve."

The rest is correct.
That use of the topic makes me a bit nervous... For one thing, we've always seen it come at the head of the clause, and for another, why not just use the adposition "teri"?
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Carborundum

Also, I don't think there are any Frommerian examples of nume used transitively.
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Sireayä mokri

Quote from: omängum fra'uti on November 08, 2010, 11:50:04 AM
That use of the topic makes me a bit nervous... For one thing, we've always seen it come at the head of the clause, and for another, why not just use the adposition "teri"?

I was thinking about teri, but I just personally like using topic instead of it :)

Quote from: Carborundum on November 08, 2010, 11:57:05 AM
Also, I don't think there are any Frommerian examples of nume used transitively.

I don't remember anything being said against it.
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

omängum fra'uti

I'm less worried about nume then the topic.  While I can't think of any cases of nume used transitively from Frommer, I also can only think of one where it was used at all.  However it is possible there is a better or more colloquial way to say it.  (There was a discussion many months back about how to say "learn to speak Na'vi" with the final consensus from the community being "nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi" - but I'm not sure that exact structure would work with generic lì'fya.  Maybe using fa instead of the adverbial form.)

If you really want to use the topic, I think you'd want to shuffle the clauses around a little...

Lunìri a ayeveng zene nivume lì'fyat amuve, oe pìylltxe
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Carborundum

Quote from: Sireayä mokri on November 08, 2010, 11:59:57 AM
Quote from: omängum fra'uti on November 08, 2010, 11:50:04 AM
That use of the topic makes me a bit nervous... For one thing, we've always seen it come at the head of the clause, and for another, why not just use the adposition "teri"?
I was thinking about teri, but I just personally like using topic instead of it :)
But as OF said, you'd have to make it clause initial for it to be correct.

Quote from: Sireayä mokri on November 08, 2010, 11:59:57 AM
Quote from: Carborundum on November 08, 2010, 11:57:05 AM
Also, I don't think there are any Frommerian examples of nume used transitively.
I don't remember anything being said against it.
No, but it's unsafe to make assumptions about words based on what hasn't been said about them, to say the least.
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Sireayä mokri

Quote from: Carborundum on November 08, 2010, 12:11:51 PM
Quote from: Sireayä mokri on November 08, 2010, 11:59:57 AM
Quote from: omängum fra'uti on November 08, 2010, 11:50:04 AM
That use of the topic makes me a bit nervous... For one thing, we've always seen it come at the head of the clause, and for another, why not just use the adposition "teri"?
I was thinking about teri, but I just personally like using topic instead of it :)
But as OF said, you'd have to make it clause initial for it to be correct.

What about several topics in a sentence then?

Quote from: Carborundum on November 08, 2010, 12:11:51 PM
No, but it's unsafe to make assumptions about words based on what hasn't been said about them, to say the least.

I think everything is correct until proven otherwise :)
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

Carborundum

Quote from: Sireayä mokri on November 08, 2010, 12:29:01 PM
What about several topics in a sentence then?
A sentence can (and often will) contain several clauses. Each one could (but probably shouldn't) have a topic at the head.
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Sireayä mokri

Quote from: Carborundum on November 08, 2010, 12:31:41 PM
A sentence can (and often will) contain several clauses. Each one could (but probably shouldn't) have a topic at the head.

Tslolam, tsari irayo :)
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

kewnya txamew'itan

Quote from: Carborundum on November 08, 2010, 12:31:41 PM
Quote from: Sireayä mokri on November 08, 2010, 12:29:01 PM
What about several topics in a sentence then?
A sentence can (and often will) contain several clauses. Each one could (but probably shouldn't) have a topic at the head.

Not really, a topic isn't an argument of a clause but of a discourse and having one for each clause would probably sound very ugly (but might not be strictly wrong).
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

Carborundum

Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on November 08, 2010, 01:25:21 PM
Quote from: Carborundum on November 08, 2010, 12:31:41 PM
Quote from: Sireayä mokri on November 08, 2010, 12:29:01 PM
What about several topics in a sentence then?
A sentence can (and often will) contain several clauses. Each one could (but probably shouldn't) have a topic at the head.

Not really, a topic isn't an argument of a clause but of a discourse and having one for each clause would probably sound very ugly (but might not be strictly wrong).
That's what I meant. I should probably have added a "theoretically" to be more clear.
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Eyamsiyu

Ok, just go back online.

Ok, so to understand correctly, the real change needed was to omit the use of "lawk" (which I felt was wrong), and change "lun" to "a lunìri," since the reason is the main topic in the sentence, yes?  And then also, since that is the main topic, I should shuffle the clauses around.  May I ask why it is that I needed to shuffle them up to "Lunìri a ayeveng zene nivume lì'fyat amuve, oe pìylltxe"?


"... The only people that are going to have a chance to make a living playing music is the people who do exactly what they believe in ... they have to believe in this so much that they are ready to die for it." - Jojo Mayer

On indefinite leave.  Will be back periodically. Feel free to say Kaltxí: I'll get back when I can. :D

My facebook.  Please mention you are from LN if you ch

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

When I first saw the topical suggested for this sentence, I said to myself, 'what a wonderful and clear-cut use of the topical'. All rules aside, it makes sense.

However, this breaks down if the topic is simply 'reason'. Reason is kind of like an 'intransitive noun'. IMH(and quite possibly wrong)O it needs more explanation to really be a topic.

As I read this, the topic is more like 'Should a child learn a second language'? This could be stated as a 'complex topical object' as in

Kaltxì, ulte trr lefpom, ma ayeylan.  Fitrr oe pìylltxe (lawk) furia lun ayeveng zene nivume lì'fya amuve.

Fìtrr oe pìylltxe lunìri a ayeveng zene nivume lì'fyat amuve

teri- also works well, as was suggested by Sireayä mokri

Kaltxì, ulte trr lefpom, ma ayeylan.  Fitrr oe pìylltxe teri lun ayeveng zene nivume lì'fya amuve.


Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

omängum fra'uti

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on November 08, 2010, 10:47:01 PM
When I first saw the topical suggested for this sentence, I said to myself, 'what a wonderful and clear-cut use of the topical'. All rules aside, it makes sense.

However, this breaks down if the topic is simply 'reason'. Reason is kind of like an 'intransitive noun'. IMH(and quite possibly wrong)O it needs more explanation to really be a topic.

As I read this, the topic is more like 'Should a child learn a second language'? This could be stated as a 'complex topical object' as in

Kaltxì, ulte trr lefpom, ma ayeylan.  Fitrr oe pìylltxe (lawk) furia lun ayeveng zene nivume lì'fya amuve.

Fìtrr oe pìylltxe lunìri a ayeveng zene nivume lì'fyat amuve

teri- also works well, as was suggested by Sireayä mokri

Kaltxì, ulte trr lefpom, ma ayeylan.  Fitrr oe pìylltxe teri lun ayeveng zene nivume lì'fya amuve.


Your first sentence there, not sure why you have "furia lun" rather than just "lunìri", and again the topic should be first in the sentence.  We have seen many examples of the topic from Frommer, and every single one of them, the topic is first.  Also in both your sentences, if we are going to accept that learn can be used transitively with language, you need lì'fyat not lì'fya.

The second, aside from the fact that I was the one that suggested teri, you're missing "a" in there.  "... teri lun a ayeveng ..." - pronounced the a and ayeveng meld together into one sound, but written out it should still be there.

I also don't see why lawk couldn't work, but it would be the verb for speaking instead of plltxe.

Oel lìyawk lunit a ayeveng ...
I will say something concerning the reason that children ...

The great thing about languages is that you do have flexibility in how you say things.  Though some ways can sound a bit odd compared to others.  ("I went to sleep" vs "I departed so that I could sleep" for example.)  In this case, I would probably lean more towards lawk, followed by plltxe/teri, and lastly plltxe/topic.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

#15
Quote from: omängum fra'uti on November 09, 2010, 12:16:34 AM
Your first sentence there, not sure why you have "furia lun" rather than just "lunìri", and again the topic should be first in the sentence.  We have seen many examples of the topic from Frommer, and every single one of them, the topic is first.  Also in both your sentences, if we are going to accept that learn can be used transitively with language, you need lì'fyat not lì'fya.

Since 'reason' all by itself doesn't really work (to me anyway) as a topic in this sentence (especially as the title of a paper), the topic really needs a clause to define it. If the topical needs to go first, you could write

Also, the dictionary lists nume simply as a verb, which implies it is ambitransitive, and can be used transitively.

This should be better (and I would agree tere are more than one way to say this.)

Kaltxì, ulte trr lefpom, ma ayeylan.  lun ayevengl zene nivume lì'fyat amuve a fi`uri pìylltxe oe fitrr

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

omängum fra'uti

Many (most) of the words just listed as a verb with no indication of transitive or intransitive means that it's unclear which it is, not that it can be either.

I'm not suggesting reason generically as a topic.  Re-read the first suggestion I made...

QuoteLunìri a ayeveng zene nivume lì'fyat amuve, oe pìylltxe
The underlined part is what is the topic.

It does have a clause describing what the reason is.  It's like using "kem" on it's own in a topic with a clause describing what action (IE. kemìri a ngaru prrte' ke lu, tsakem rä'ä sivi aylaheru)

Every example I have given has used "lun" that way, attributing a clause to it, whether it is the topic, with the adposition teri, or as the object of the verb lawk.

But again, I think the topic is the least natural of the three ways I presented to say it.  Thinking about it, I actually think I like the lawk form best (Without plltxe).
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: omängum fra'uti on November 09, 2010, 03:05:55 AM
Many (most) of the words just listed as a verb with no indication of transitive or intransitive means that it's unclear which it is, not that it can be either.

Then, how does one decide if such a verb can be transitive or intransitive?

Quote from: omängum fra'uti
I'm not suggesting reason generically as a topic.  Re-read the first suggestion I made...

QuoteLunìri a ayeveng zene nivume lì'fyat amuve, oe pìylltxe
The underlined part is what is the topic.

kxetse mikam mehinam I missed the a in there. Now, it makes sense.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Carborundum

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on November 09, 2010, 03:22:08 AM
Quote from: omängum fra'uti on November 09, 2010, 03:05:55 AM
Many (most) of the words just listed as a verb with no indication of transitive or intransitive means that it's unclear which it is, not that it can be either.
Then, how does one decide if such a verb can be transitive or intransitive?
One doesn't. Frommer does.
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Carborundum on November 09, 2010, 09:13:20 AM
Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on November 09, 2010, 03:22:08 AM
Then, how does one decide if such a verb can be transitive or intransitive?
One doesn't. Frommer does.

Understood. But until such a time as K. Pawl declares a verb to be transitive or intransitive, how does one decide whether it can be used transitively or intransitively (or either)?

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]