Author Topic: ke has fixed position?  (Read 1699 times)

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Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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ke has fixed position?
« on: July 21, 2010, 05:17:32 pm »
Kxaltì,

some days ago I read about the position of ke in a sentence being fix before the verb.

Later I read about all negations other than ke and rä'ä having to come in pairs.

Today I made a short check of the bible verses in my signature. While I'm confident the left one is rather correct (tell me if not - oph, just saw we now have words for hand, right and left, gonna fix that!), I'm having problems with the right part:

It's supposed to mean: With Yawä (name of God) no thing is impossible.

And right now it is impossible for me to make an educated guess on how many negations I'd have to use and where to put them... please help ???

Irayo!
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline Payä Tìrol

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2010, 05:25:26 pm »
I think trying to say that literally would instead result in actually saying "Nothing is possible", because of Na'vi using double negatives to mean a single negation. Would it be too much of a stretch to say "everything is possible"?

Maybe:
Yawä-ri, frakem letsunslu lu. ?
Regarding God, everything is possible.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 05:33:30 pm by Payä Tìrol »
Oeyä atanìl mì sìvawm, mipa tìreyä tìsìlpeyur yat terìng

Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2010, 05:33:47 pm »
Irayo! I didn't think about using the topic on the right side, though I've used it on the left...
Also irayo for the thing with kem. Back when I made the sig, there was no kem there, I think, so I didn't check this. So I'd also say tuteri before?

ulte Jesus a nusìn ayfo pamlltxe
san tuteri ke lu letsunslu
slä Yawäri kea kem ke lu letsunslu sìk.


BUT: According to negations having to come in doubles, wouldn't this translate as: As for Yawä, no deed is possible? This would not be what I want to say ;)
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline Payä Tìrol

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2010, 05:34:27 pm »
Yes, ngaytxoa, I realized that after posting and made several edits... I tend to do that.
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Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2010, 05:41:27 pm »
Also ngaytxoa, I tend to not see those things... :(

What a clean and brilliant approach to kick out all negations. Sometimes one doesn't see the most obvious...

Though, still, if not in my signature then in real life na’vi conversation: How would one do two negations like no thing is impossible?

kea 'u ke lu ke letsunslu?

I mean, there should be a possibility, shouldn't there? Maybe they just turn it all to positives generally...?
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline Kä'eng

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2010, 05:46:12 pm »
I think trying to say that literally would instead result in actually saying "Nothing is possible", because of Na'vi using double negatives to mean a single negation. Would it be too much of a stretch to say "everything is possible"?

Maybe:
Yawä-ri, frakem letsunslu lu. ?
Regarding God, everything is possible.

Instead of -ri I would suggest the adposition fa, which means "with" in the sense of "by means of". The topical makes it sound to me like you're talking about actions pertaining to God.

Also, letsunslu lu is kind of an inefficient phrase, since letsunslu "possible" actually comes from a verb tsunslu "be possible". So you're essentially turning a verb into an adjective with le-, and then back into a verb with lu. Yuck! Just say frakem tsunslu.

Though, still, if not in my signature then in real life na’vi conversation: How would one do two negations like no thing is impossible?

kea 'u ke lu ke letsunslu?
It so happens that there's an adjective for "impossible" (keltsun), so you could say ke'u ke lu keltsun. There's probably a good chance of people misunderstanding that, though.
Ma evi, ke'u ke lu prrte' to fwa sim tuteot ayawne.
Slä txo tuteo fmi 'ivampi ngat ro seng, fu nìfya'o, a 'eykefu ngati vä', tsakem ke lu sìltsan.
Tsaw lu ngeyä tokx! Kawtu ke tsun nìmuiä 'ivampi ngat txo ngal ke new tsakemit.
Ha kempe si nga? Nì'awve, nga plltxe san kehe. Tsakrr, ngal tsatsengti hum!

Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2010, 05:51:23 pm »
Irayo for pointing to fa. Though I think, this sounds like God being a tool. So I think I'll switch back to hu, wich I used in the very beginning.

And yes, I find the whole negations thing very confusing...
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline Payä Tìrol

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2010, 05:58:58 pm »
Quote
So you're essentially turning a verb into an adjective with le-, and then back into a verb with lu. Yuck!
Yes, I see that now and I don't know how I missed it :P
Oeyä atanìl mì sìvawm, mipa tìreyä tìsìlpeyur yat terìng

Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2010, 06:20:29 pm »
[OT]

What about the beginning: ulte Jesus a nusìn ayfo pamlltxe

Is it a correct relative clause? "Jesus, seeing them, said:..."

[/OT]
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline Muzer

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2010, 06:23:16 pm »
Unless there is a specific negative form mentioned in the dictionary, I believe you can negate most adjectives by adding the prefix ke-. Though this might be me imagining things :P
[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2010, 03:43:22 am »
I think Muzer's right with negations.

That said, keltsun is clearly a syntactic negative not just a semantic one. Because of this, "ke'u ke lu keltsun" would still be grammatically negative and roughly mean "nothing is at all possible". frakem tsunslu seems like the best option to me.
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Offline Muzer

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2010, 06:34:05 am »
Ah, but then that's a triple negative (ke'u, ke lu and keltsun) - maybe that counts like an English double negative (so giving nothing is impossible, as we want)? We don't know, I don't think.
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[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

Offline Carborundum

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2010, 09:12:54 am »
[OT]

What about the beginning: ulte Jesus a nusìn ayfo pamlltxe

Is it a correct relative clause? "Jesus, seeing them, said:..."

[/OT]
No, it's not correct. Nusìn is a participle, but you're using it like a verb (I think?). The verb would be nerìn. I think the imperfective aspect is justified here, because Jesus were actually watching them for a while before speaking up (Again, I think. Haven't actually read the bible).
You're also doing a weird thing with the tense. Na'vi likes establishing a tense early on, and then forgetting all about it. I'd move the tense from plltxe to nìn.
What we have then is:
ulte Jesus a narmìn ayfoti plltxe
"And Jesus, who had been watching them, spoke:"

Edit: And maybe his name should be transcribed as Tseysusì?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 10:26:55 am by Carborundum »
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Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2010, 11:47:40 am »
If I remeber right the Greek sentence translates like: "Jesus, seeing them, spoke" So I think participle would not be wrong, I was not sure whether to add the a to the nusìn or let it dstand alone. Maybe anusìn would be correct? I wasn't sure about the ayfo belonging clearly to the anusìn, but as it bears no -ti, it clearly does not belong to the pamlltxe, I think...

Maybe I just follow Latin/Greek clusters too much... ???

Quote
And maybe his name should be transcribed as Tseysusì?
Possible. I decided to keep it in the English way, like the movie did with Jake. If I was to transcribe it, I'd rather go for Yäsus or Yesus I think, but this could come from me being German and pronouncing the name more or less like this...
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline Muzer

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2010, 12:00:55 pm »
But the sentence as a whole makes no sense - <us> and <awn> create adjectives. What you said would be similar to saying "the man, who tall, spoke"
[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2010, 12:21:16 pm »
Ist a participle an adjective? The man, eating spaghetti, ... I think it serves at least in the function of an adjective, if not sed to form some tenses...

Hard to find good English examples, as English makes vast use of participles when forming tenses...


"The walking man spoke to the running child." I understand "walking" and "rnning" rather as adjectives here then as verbs...



Edit: Found someone saying something similar to what I say. So I think anusìn would be correct... The only question is: Can the "ayfo" be used dependend on anusìn? Would it need accusative ending (without there being an ergative?)...

Maybe the whole construct doesn't work and I have to make something more like "while seeing" or the like...
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 12:28:13 pm by Tìmuiäyä'itan »
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2010, 01:50:09 pm »
Ah, but then that's a triple negative (ke'u, ke lu and keltsun) - maybe that counts like an English double negative (so giving nothing is impossible, as we want)? We don't know, I don't think.

We don't know, but if the other similarities between na'vi and Spanish let us use it as a useful guide (Spanish allows double negatives but doesn't require them), a triple negative would still give an overall negative sense (as it does in English) just like a double negative. In this instance, I see no reason for na'vi to be different.

But the sentence as a whole makes no sense - <us> and <awn> create adjectives. What you said would be similar to saying "the man, who tall, spoke"

Ist a participle an adjective? The man, eating spaghetti, ... I think it serves at least in the function of an adjective, if not sed to form some tenses...

Hard to find good English examples, as English makes vast use of participles when forming tenses...


"The walking man spoke to the running child." I understand "walking" and "rnning" rather as adjectives here then as verbs...



Edit: Found someone saying something similar to what I say. So I think anusìn would be correct... The only question is: Can the "ayfo" be used dependend on anusìn? Would it need accusative ending (without there being an ergative?)...

Maybe the whole construct doesn't work and I have to make something more like "while seeing" or the like...

Participles are normally adjectives. In na'vi this is the only use we have attested. In some languages participles can sometimes be used as nouns as an extension of the sustantive use of adjectives, na'vi doesn't do this (this could be used as a weak argument against sustantive adjectives as well), it uses gerunds for a similar effect. Sometimes though, participles can be adverbs, like here. Given the behaviour of gerunds in na'vi and the fact that we've been told that the use of nì- on adjectives is entirely productive, I think nì-nu<s>ìn would normally be accurate.

That said, in na'vi, participles cannot retain any of their verbal arguments and so we cannot say that Jesus is seeing them. What I'd say instead is that tengkrr should be used so "Tsesusì tengkrr a narmìn ayfoti poltxe"

An attributive use would not be accurate. That would mean "looking Jesus spoke to them" and imply that there was a Jesus who was not looking.
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Offline Tìmuiäyä'itan

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2010, 02:13:19 pm »
Would this be a use as adverb? Never looked at it that way, as the looking does not describe the speaking...

Quote
"Tsesusì tengkrr a narmìn ayfoti poltxe"
Why the "a"? And I am still a bit confused about the ergative here. As I understand it, the tengkrr would iniciate a subsentence, which wold need the subject to have an ergative, but "Tsesusì" belongs to the main sentence (as I understand it) and plltxe is intransitive...
srungìri ftära tsyokxìl ngeyä
ke ivomum futa pesuru
lu srung skiena tsyokxta ngeyä
ulte Jesus a nerìn ayfo pamlltxe
san sutehu lu keltsun
slä Yawähu frakem tsunslu sìk.

Offline Carborundum

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2010, 02:23:00 pm »
That said, in na'vi, participles cannot retain any of their verbal arguments and so we cannot say that Jesus is seeing them. What I'd say instead is that tengkrr should be used so "Tsesusì tengkrr a narmìn ayfoti poltxe"
I'm not sure I see what you are doing with tengkrr here. Narmìn ayfoti is being attributed to tengkrr, which is a conj. How does that work?
I could see tengkrr as a part of the attributive clause, Jesus a tengkrr narmìn ayfoti poltxe, but using both tengkrr and <er> seems a bit redundant.
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Offline Muzer

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Re: ke has fixed position?
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2010, 03:19:44 pm »
"Tsesusì a tsarme'a ayfoti pamlltxe" would be the one that seems right to me - "Jesus, who was seeing them, spoke" (tse'a seems better than nìn here to me, and poltxe would be more like "has spoken", which doesn't really sound right in this context).
[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

 

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