Author Topic: Links to actually useful documents?  (Read 1533 times)

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Offline Makto ko!

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Links to actually useful documents?
« on: December 22, 2010, 05:28:23 am »
Dear advanced members of the Na'vi community

I was wondering, in starting this thread, if anyone could provide links to useful documents for actually learning the language, such as useful lists of words to learn, or diagrams in constructing sentences instead of reels of words we do not know or that are irrelevant, having just started out, and are directed to. Having read the tips on learning the language, I think it would be preferable knowing which words I should learn and why, and heavily focus to start on commonly used words?

Can anyone help me on this?
Irayo,
- Ta Makto
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Offline eejmensenikbenhet

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2010, 05:59:42 am »
Dear advanced members of the Na'vi community

I was wondering, in starting this thread, if anyone could provide links to useful documents for actually learning the language, such as useful lists of words to learn, or diagrams in constructing sentences instead of reels of words we do not know or that are irrelevant, having just started out, and are directed to. Having read the tips on learning the language, I think it would be preferable knowing which words I should learn and why, and heavily focus to start on commonly used words?

Can anyone help me on this?
Irayo,
- Ta Makto
There is a whole thread in this subboard ;)
http://forum.learnnavi.org/beginners/(for-beginners)-links-to-useful-documents/

Offline Makto ko!

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2010, 06:05:56 am »
Irayo, ma tsmuk.
I did not know there was a thread on this subject, as I did not check for other documents past a certain age.

- Ta Makto
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Offline eejmensenikbenhet

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2010, 06:09:08 am »
Irayo, ma tsmuk.
I did not know there was a thread on this subject, as I did not check for other documents past a certain age.

- Ta Makto
I'ts always good to check the sticky topics of a subboard ;)

Offline Makto ko!

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2010, 06:28:47 am »
Having viewed the documents on the sticky, I have put together a sentence that I would like corrected, as I am pretty sure it will be wrong (it uses only example verbs).

Oe-l yomt<ay>ìng ikran-ìt oe-yä
I-<ag> (will) feed  banshee-<dat> mine-<poss>
I will feed my banshee


Correction:
Oe yomt<ay>ìng ikran-ur oe-yä
I-<age>  (<will>) feed (the) banshee-<dat> (which is) mine-<poss>
I will give food (to) my banshee

« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 07:41:02 am by Makto ko! »
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2010, 06:37:47 am »
Very good for a first attempt. :)

First of all, remember that the hyphens and angle brackets are only a useful markup inside this board, outside of there, you're unlikely to see them (except maybe if people are putting affixes on borrowed words).

Your only actual mistake is the case on ikran. Yomtìng is a special verb that doesn't actually take the same syntax as "to feed" so, although in English ikran is the direct object, in na'vi (where yomtìng is best glossed as "to give food") ikran is an indirect object and takes the dative -ur because you are giving the food to the ikran. (Also, the patientive suffix is -it not -ìt but that's fairly minor).

So:

oe yomt<ay>ìng ikran-ur oe-yä
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 07:20:41 am by kewnya txamew'itan »
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Offline Makto ko!

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2010, 07:00:40 am »
Ma Kewnya, irayo for the correction.
I understand now what you mean by giving the ikran the dative case as it would be the same as if I have not combined 'to give' and 'food' into a special verb, and in such as case it would have been t<ay>ìng yom-it, wouldn't it?
But because I combined it into the verb it as such doesn't recieve the case? Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe if I am right this would be a good mistake for me to remember in future dealings with combined verbs!

Again, irayo, eywa ngahu oeyä tsmukan,
- Ta Makto
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Offline eejmensenikbenhet

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2010, 07:07:49 am »
oe-l t<ay>ìng yom-it ikran-ur oe-yä
I (age) will give food (pat) to ikran (dat) of me (gen)
I will give food to my ikran.


I think this would be correct indeed.

Offline Makto ko!

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2010, 07:21:08 am »
Irayo ma Eejmensenik,
I will continue learning grammar and words in the hope of maybe, soon, achieving complex sentence level :)
It would also be helpful if maybe you can guide me to some words and their uses it would be helpful for me to learn. I also need to memorise grammar, but Neotrekker's 'Na'vi in a Nutshell' is doing very well to help this.

- Ta Makto
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2010, 07:22:00 am »
Ma Kewnya, irayo for the correction.
I understand now what you mean by giving the ikran the dative case as it would be the same as if I have not combined 'to give' and 'food' into a special verb, and in such as case it would have been t<ay>ìng yom-it, wouldn't it?
But because I combined it into the verb it as such doesn't recieve the case? Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe if I am right this would be a good mistake for me to remember in future dealings with combined verbs!

Again, irayo, eywa ngahu oeyä tsmukan,
- Ta Makto

Pretty much. Yom doesn't actually mean food, but "eat" so you'd have to use syuve instead but your point is still correct, the "yom" is functioning like the direct object so the thing being fed can't take the patientive. This is the same for all si verbs and compound-tìng-verbs (although there might be a few exceptions here, I'm not sure).

I also spotted another mistake in my post. I said "oe-l" but, because there isn't a noun marked in the patientive with -ti/-it, you shouldn't use the agentive -l so it should just be "oe". (I've edited my post to correct this).
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Offline Makto ko!

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2010, 07:36:49 am »
I have edited my post with a correction, but the correction in fact misses the corrections you pointed out it needing, so I will change this. I understand completely your point, and will continue my study of cases and their uses, as well as more advanced grammar. Is there any useful words that are almost always used that I can practice with? I know of 'lu', but it is fairly straightforward and isn't change by gender or reference except in circumstance of direction of the 'state of being' and so wouldn't prove, in my opinion, a good test subject. Any recommendations?

- Ta Makto
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2010, 07:40:48 am »
Ma Makto ko, we never use agentive with intransitive verbs. It should be just oe, not oel, with the verb yomtìng :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2010, 07:42:55 am »
Ma Kemaweyan, I have changed this as both you and Kewnya pointed this out to me so thanks for that. I will in the future post here my (hopefully) difficulty-increasing sentences for correction and hope you all may be able to help me with the basic stages of the language.

- Ta, Makto
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Offline Makto ko!

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2010, 08:19:18 am »
My new sentence construction using new cases I have learned...

Oe- l pamrel s<äp><eyk>i puk- ur.
I-<age> write-<special><self><cause> (a) book-<dat>
I make myself write a book

It is sort of nonsensical, because there are few cases in which you need to force your self to write a book, but hopefully it is grammatically secure. It means what it does because <äp> is used to indicate that the action is performed on yourself, and any sentence that uses a 'self' infix gives the object affected by this the dative (because you yourself are the patientive but it is not necessary to repeat this in a sentence), <eyk> is used to indicate that the direct object was forced or made to do something by the subject, but doesn't force the direct object to take dative because the use of <äp> forces the sentence to give the previous indirect object patientive, and the previously direct object (the book) dative. Its a bit confusing, even to me, but hopefully it makes sense to people who know more about what they are talking about...

- Ta Makto

By the way the sentence without markup (for ease of reading) is:
Oel pamrel säpeyki pukur.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2010, 08:35:17 am »
Almost. You only ever use -l if there's a direct object marked with -ti/-t or -it so it should just be oe (the <äp> and <eyk> cancel each other out in that regard).

Then there are more philosophical concerns that lead me to suspect that pamrel si is completely intransitive and that in na'vi, one cannot write a book however such a concern has very little basis and shouldn't worry you seeing as you're writing them to practice the grammar and vocab.
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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2010, 08:43:59 am »
Ah, ma Kewnya, I had no idea of such philisophical context and yes, true, these are just practices. Thankyou for the correction of oe-l regardless and I will try to remember for the future,

~ Ta Makto  ;D
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2010, 08:45:25 am »
You only ever use -l if there's a direct object marked with -ti/-t or -it

Almost :) We must use this if there is transitive verb with <eyk>, but without a direct object:

  Pol oeru teykolaron.
  He caused me to hunt.

Besides we must use agentive with transitive verbs even if there's no explicit object:

  Oer sunu vur a ngolop ngal.
  I like the story which you created.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2010, 08:53:28 am »
Haha a correction for a correction hm?
~Ta Makto

Also when you write in Na'vi please could you use the markup otherwise I find it hard to pick out infixes, irayo.
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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2010, 08:56:35 am »
Almost. You only ever use -l if there's a direct object marked with -ti/-t or -it so it should just be oe (the <äp> and <eyk> cancel each other out in that regard).

Then there are more philosophical concerns that lead me to suspect that pamrel si is completely intransitive and that in na'vi, one cannot write a book however such a concern has very little basis and shouldn't worry you seeing as you're writing them to practice the grammar and vocab.

As for the documents, could you please actualize the link of that document of mine?
Where it is written "Na'vi para Novatos", change it to "Na'vi for Beginners", then, add the English version (http://forum.learnnavi.org/learning-resources/navi-for-beginners/ - the thread; http://forum.learnnavi.org/learning-resources/navi-for-beginners/?action=dlattach;attach=6898 - the documment);
And modify the link of the Portuguese version: http://forum.learnnavi.org/portugues/traducoes/?action=dlattach;attach=6833 - it needs to be slightly actualized.

Thank you.
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

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Re: Links to actually useful documents?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2010, 09:01:31 am »
You only ever use -l if there's a direct object marked with -ti/-t or -it

Almost :) We must use this if there is transitive verb with <eyk>, but without a direct object:

  Pol oeru teykolaron.
  He caused me to hunt.

Besides we must use agentive with transitive verbs even if there's no explicit object:

  Oer sunu vur a ngolop ngal.
  I like the story which you created.

How would I say: "I started it", would it be: "Oel sngeykä'i fì'ut"?
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

 

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