Author Topic: Looking for a weird verb  (Read 319 times)

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Offline Mech

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Looking for a weird verb
« on: February 05, 2019, 10:51:29 pm »
Long time ago, while looking in a dictionary, I found a two-syllable compound verb, composed of two monosyllabic verbs. Like yom-tìng.

What I found weird in that verb was that the infix positions were before both vowels. I mean, the case of yomtìng is that its root is tìng so all infixes go there. It's yomtoleiyìng, not yolomteiyìng.

However, that verb I am talking about, despite being a compound, worked exactly this way, according to the dictionary's notation.

Do you have an idea which two-syllsable compound verb or verbs behave like this? Or was it a mistake of the dictionary?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 10:57:50 pm by Mech »

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Looking for a weird verb
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2019, 11:20:47 pm »
zoslu is another such verb-verb compound. In fact, I believe that zoslu and yomtìng are the only such verbs. And in both cases, the infix positions are (2,2) -- that is, all infixes in syllable 2.

We have these classes of compound verbs, what I like to call:

compound head-initial
compound head-final

zoslu and yomtìng, depsite being verb-verb compounds, follow the general rule of thumb for compounds where the infixes all go in the *main* verbal element, not split among each. The main verbal element of these happens to be the second half, so these are counted as compound head-final. It turns out that a huge portion if not the vast majority of compounds are head-final, having all their infixes in the second half.

examples of compound head-initial:
zenke
yemstokx
newomum

exmaples of compound head-final:
'awstengyem
krrnekx
maweypey
nulnew
oeyktìng
pänutìng
ralpeng
sìlpey
teswotìng
ultxarun
yomtìng
zoslu
kä'ärìp
kämakto
kämunge

A quick pro-tip on finding these compounds: search the Na'vi Dictionary PDF for (ii) This is our marking for "irregular infixes". (speaking of this, a few entries for eligible verbs are missing this marking)

Hope this was of any help

:ikran: 8)

EDIT: I am now on the hunt for the very same verb, because I vaguely remember that being a thing that exists. I will have a list shortly of every single compound verb.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 11:24:55 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Looking for a weird verb
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2019, 12:02:47 am »
On a scan through all the verbs we have in Eana Eltu (via fwew /list), here is what I have found:

EDIT: using the (X,Y) convention where position 1 infixes go in the Xth syllable, and position 2 infixes go in the Yth syllable


DOUBLE EDIT: Was the "weird verb" any of these? (I would assume it has to be, if these are all the compound verbs listed o.o) Which was the one you were thinking of? :D
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 12:09:15 am by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Mech

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Re: Looking for a weird verb
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2019, 12:22:14 am »
I am not sure, but it seems to be tungzup. In any case it behaves in this weird manner: it is a compound (tung + zup) but is a 2,2 verb. Same with nongspe' and tsunslu ??? Not sure about the etymology of the other 2,2 verbs.

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Re: Looking for a weird verb
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2019, 01:10:11 am »
I am not sure, but it seems to be tungzup. In any case it behaves in this weird manner: it is a compound (tung + zup) but is a 2,2 verb. Same with nongspe' and tsunslu ??? Not sure about the etymology of the other 2,2 verbs.

tungzup is a (1,2) verb. t<><>ungz<>up.

nongspe' vtr. pursue with intent to capture = nong vtr. follow + spe'e vtr. capture
tsunslu vin. may, be possible = tsun vim. can, be able + slu vin. become

as for the etymology of the (2,2) verbs I posted above:


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Offline Mech

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Re: Looking for a weird verb
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2019, 01:24:19 am »
Oops I wanted to say 1,2 verbs. I am not much used to the linguistic coding that you are using.

So you guess now what I wanted to say: 2-syllable compound verbs from 2 monosyllabic verbs, however whose infixes are distributed to both syllables.

Such verbs are tungzup, nongspe' and tsunslu (not sure about the few other 1,2 verbs)

So, I found it weird because I knew that the infix positions go to the "main" verb of the compound.

In yomtìng the "main" verb is "give", because when you feed someone, you are giving, not eating.

So I would guess that in tungzup the "main" verb would be "allow" because when you drop something, you allow it to fall, you aren't falling. So I would expect it to be t<1><2>ungzup. ??? :-\

So, i belive these compound 1,2 verbs are a bit irregular.

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Re: Looking for a weird verb
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2019, 02:04:09 am »
Oops I wanted to say 1,2 verbs. I am not much used to the linguistic coding that you are using.

Understandable. LN has several quirky custom in-house linguistic terms and conventions.

So you guess now what I wanted to say: 2-syllable compound verbs from 2 monosyllabic verbs, however whose infixes are distributed to both syllables.

Such verbs are tungzup, nongspe' and tsunslu (not sure about the few other 1,2 verbs)

Ah, so this list here:

## compound two-headed

# (1,2)
tungzup : vtr. drop = tung vtr. allow + zup vin. fall

kan'ìn : vtr. focus on, specialize in, be particularly interested in = kan vtrm. intend, aim + 'ìn svin. be busy/occupied

nongspe' : vtr. pursue with intent to capture = nong vtr. follow + spe'e vtr. capture

tsunslu : vin. may, be possible = tsun vim. can, be able + slu vin. become

'ongokx : vin. be born = 'ong v. unfold, blossom + nokx vtr. give birth to

sulìn : svin. be busy (positive sense) = sul (??) + 'ìn svin. be busy/occupied

vrrìn : svin. be busy (negative sense) = vrr (??) + 'ìn svin. be busy/occupied

kanfpìl : vin. concentrate, focus one's attention = kan vtrm. intend, aim + fpìl vtr. think


So, I found it weird because I knew that the infix positions go to the "main" verb of the compound.

In yomtìng the "main" verb is "give", because when you feed someone, you are giving, not eating.

Indeed. I see what you're saying and I would agree with this analysis.

So I would guess that in tungzup the "main" verb would be "allow" because when you drop something, you allow it to fall, you aren't falling. So I would expect it to be t<1><2>ungzup. ??? :-\

So, i belive these compound 1,2 verbs are a bit irregular.

Yeah, I can agree that the logic falls apart with these (1,2) ones, especially because they are verb-verb compounds. They somehow don't seem to actually have a "main" constituent like all the others. Although all things considered, these irregularly irregular ones (which basically means that they follow the same (1,2) scheme as two syllable regulars! like taron, etc.) are quite few in number. There are only six of these in the language (I did not count sulìn or vrrìn because it's not clear what verb sul / vrr are, or if they are even verbs at all. It's actually quite strange that these get infixes in those areas especially if they are not verbs.)

Speaking of sul and vrr, only these words feature the sequences sul and vrr:


# sul
pxasul adj. fresh, appealing as food
sosul adj. pleasant smell of nearby running water, rain, moist vegetation
sulìn svin. be busy (positive sense), be engrossed in something one finds especially pleasant and energizing
säsulìn n. hobby, pleasureyielding activity
wäsul vin. compete
tìwäsul n. competition
säwäsul n. a competition
säwäsultsyìp n. a contest

(all the wäsul words are actually wä and tul, so not sure if those actually count.)

# vrr
vrrtep n. demon
vrrìn svin. be busy (negative sense): be tired out and overwhelmed by an activity that's keeping one busy

(and literally only these two words in the entire language feature the sequence "vrr")



strange.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 02:10:41 am by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Mech

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Re: Looking for a weird verb
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2019, 03:34:38 am »
I wonder how fixed these rules are and how seriously are taken by the Na'vi. Perhaps there are more than 1 "correct" way to treat those compound verbs. Perhaps are tendencies to regularize such "irregular" verbs :-\

Perhaps in colloquial speech they treat more 2-syllable verbs like "regular" 1,2 and produce expressions like yolomteiyìng.

Tsunslu is officially a 1,2, verb but perhaps the "proper" conjugation would be 2,2 (tsunsloleiu) but some Na'vi for some reason ignored it and regularized it.

Perhaps many regular 2-syllable verbs like "taron" were compounds whose elements have been obscured in history, and were later regulrized.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 04:50:28 am by Mech »

 

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